In today's podcast Mason chats to Amina Eastham-Hillier. Amina is a highly experienced Lyme literate naturopath who specialises in testing and treating Lyme disease, Lyme co-infections, mould illness and mould and chemical sensitivities. Mason and Amina take a deep dive into all things mould related, exploring how this often invisible toxin can lead to chronic disease within the body.
Mason and Amina unpack:
Who is Amina Eastham-Hillier?
Amina owns a successful multi-modality clinic in Noosa comprising of 18 practitioners. With over 15 years of Naturopathic and 25 years of Nutritional practice, Amina successfully treats chronic illnesses and complex cases. Amina is a Keynote speaker presenting to medical doctors and naturopaths at international conferences, medical documentaries, TV interviews, radio, seminars, webinars, podcasts and workshops. Author of “Lyme Natural” Amina won the award for ‘Australian Practitioner of the year’ in 2017 and is currently finalising her second book (Chronic stealth infections – Filling in the missing pieces).
Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?
A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus we're on Spotify! We got you covered on all bases ;P
Check Out The Transcript Here:
Mason: Hey gang, got a special one for you today. Years ago, I mean like two years ago, I was doing the Mason Taylor Show podcast, and I was chatting with a new friend of mine, Amina Eastham-Hillier, incredible naturopath, and we'd done a podcast on Lyme disease, which is still back over there and the Mason Taylor, showed up put it in the show notes, but we did an interview together all about mould, mould, toxicity, mould and it's relationship with other stealth infections.
Mason: It kind of just got lost in the ether. It was right at the end when I was putting the podcast on pause, so it actually never got released, so I thought I'd bring it back out. The audio I don't think is as crisp but it's pretty good so I don't think it'd be too irritating and just an update on that one.
Mason: In a couple of weeks we go into a new warehouse and office space, and we all have a podcast route, so [inaudible 00:01:31] audio will forever be clean and crisp but for today Amina, she's professional and really legit award-winning naturopath. She's really making big educating waves and her Instagram is rad as well. She shares lots of information from all the conferences that she's going, just like little tidbits about what's coming up in the naturopath world.
Mason: She's a nutritionist and she's an author and a keynote presenter. She's worked in the industry for like 25 years. She specializes though in these chronic complex cases, chronic symptoms like fatigue, and brain fog, and pain, digestive issues and anxiety, and depression, and skin disorders, and the medical industry is like, it's all in your head. And so she's got this really good investigative and diagnostic ability as skills in around functional medicine and testing like super comprehensive and she's really successful with that, with helping chronically ill patients, so she does that.
Mason: She consults via Skype, but she has a clinic called, I think it's Noosa Holistic Health, so if you up there in the sunny coast, really good resource, you're really lucky to have her there. It's like a lot of practitioners there, so we are bustling hub of health and wellness. But Amina, A-M-I-N-A .com.au is where you can go and get her information.
Mason: So as I said, the first podcast we did together was on Lyme disease and you can go to the notes and there's a great book that she's written Lyme Natural, it's got lots of resources there. But also if you go to the website as well, if you're looking for more information on what we're talking about today with mould, the co-infections, we go really deep into what you need to be doing, how to get diagnosed, how you then clean up the diet, get the inflammation down in the body, get the body into the somewhat pre detox state so that it's not just this huge ordeal of the body when you start busting down these biofilms that in case this mould and just wreak havoc on the body if you do.
Mason: It's got a really nice systematic approach then. We talk about biofilms, we talk about how one would start breaking them down so you can actually get down into the infection. We talk about how it's important to be using binders like charcoal, carefully with charcoal, not too much, but then I also like using clay in these kind of things, and zeolites. We talk about how to use those in this protocol, as well as how to generally make sure that you're going to really clean up after you bust down those biofilms.
Mason: It's deep, it's like undiagnosed in any way. I might give you a couple of extra clues and possibly what's going on. As always, I definitely recommend work with a practitioner, Amina's magic, she works via Skype as well. Let's jump into it. Nature and health practitioner of the year winner, Amina Eastham-Hillier. Amina, welcome back.
Amina: Hello, thank you very much, thank you Mason.
Mason: I had really good feedback from a lot of people listening to that last podcast. We were talking about stealth pathogens kind of in general but especially we phoned in on Lyme and ticks and people were especially living up in the Northern rivers up, where you are all up and down the East Coast, just basically saying thank you. You know I just hadn't really considered just how much of a huge part of my life that this is, and they're getting on that prevention bandwagon, as well as a few people with Lyme who appreciated it. I just wanted to give you that feedback first of all because we didn't get a chance to mention that.
Amina: Thank you. Lovely to hear, that's great.
Mason: It was lovely, is lovely and the last time, we're not going to be able to really talk about all stealth pathogens in one big nerd podcast, because we need to get deeper. And so today we're going to be diving into mould. I haven't really done my due diligence on mould, I would say, not to the extent that I had on Lyme, so hopefully I'll be able to keep up and ask some very specific questions today. But first thing I want to talk about is, were you kind of like, through your practice, were you forced to get interested in mould or you just get into it organically and then start somewhat specializing.
Amina: It kind of did happen like that actually. What I found is working with a lot of specializing in chronic illnesses and chronic stealth infections, just filling in those missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. Like I've mentioned before, I love to actually get a blank template and put in all the clues and they're sort of all the imbalances that may be going on contributing to that person's illness.
Amina: What I realized was something that a lot of chronic illness patients have, are these real sort of cold constitutions, they often shake their hand and their hands are very cold. They complain about feet being cold. They've often moved up from Melbourne or Adelaide up to Queensland. Looking at their constitution from a Chinese medicine perspective, you can really sort of see that very strong ying type symptoms, so they're lacking their yang, which is the fire, the heat, and they've become stagnant. The energy is not flowing very well. A lot of Qi stagnations.
Amina: So, the people generally are quite cold and often present with a lot of damp type symptoms. I just started looking into it and realized, I know coming from England that mould can severely affect the health, I know it has in my past. I used to have asthma in England and over here I'm actually pretty good with it, because I'm very careful about mould.
Amina: So just upon asking questions, realized that a lot of people are actually living in a lot of mouldy houses or they work in a place that the air con's on, never gets cleaned, especially after floods. A lot of [inaudible 00:06:31] and it's quite a decline and a lot of peoples' health after the floods have been around and the people are sort of getting a bit stagnated with all the damp weather.
Amina: I just noticed patterns and just looked into it a lot more and found out, yeah, there's definitely a correlation. And then I started researching, and I found that a doctor in America, Dr Schumacher that's done a lot of work with mould and he actually has coined the term associated with chronic infections such as Lyme to be SIRS or CIRS, which is chronic inflammatory response syndrome. So looking at the symptoms of the patients he'd assessed and then looking at my patients, I could definitely see there's some big correlation there. Just upon investigation, more diagnosis, I realized there's a strong link.
Mason: What level of seriousness do you place on mould? After the floods, did you find that there was an increase of people who didn't have high enough standards in terms of if there's mould on it, getting rid of it and left it too long and opened themselves up to deeper infection? What's your vibe on that or is the population pretty good where, you know, here on the East coast and Australia? Does everyone kind of get the severity of mould?
Amina: No, I don't think people do. I think if people have researched, they can for sure, there's a lot of very informed people out there. The thing is mould can often be invisible, you wouldn't even see some of the mould spores. It only takes two days after floods or a rainfall, coming in the wind into your veranda, so it only takes two days for these types of toxic mould spores to grow.
Amina: A lot of people aren't aware, so it's one question that I ask every single patient now, do you live in a mouldy house? Have you ever lived in a mouldy house? Are you exposed to mould in any way? Have you got a car that had windows open and were you sitting in that, because what I found is, there's actually 24% of people have these HLA Genotypes that make them very sensitive to mould. That's almost one in four people, so you can have a house of four people, one will be very affected by mould, whereas the other three are like, "What's your problem? We're all fine. There's nothing, there must be something else going on."
Amina: If you have these particular genotypes, which are very similar to Lyme disease genotype, or more susceptibility to Lyme, and those associated stealth infections and also very similar genotypes to people who get celiac disease. So there're different types, the genotype is over 50 ones that have been studied by this. Dr Schumacher.
Mason: Is this generally someone who, like is there a correlation between that cold damp constitution at the same time as [inaudible 00:09:04]?
Amina: I believe so, I definitely think so, because the people that I tested with the inflammatory markers, the HLA genetic variations definitely have the symptoms. I think it does come down to a lot of, you know, there are other genetics involved. The thing is mould will affect people generally if they already have a compromised immune system. So they have a lot of chronic stealth infections as we discussed in our last podcast. They're going to be more susceptible, and then if they're also living in water damaged buildings,.
Amina: Currently in America, 50% of the buildings are actually water damaged. That's a lot of mould hanging around and you wouldn't know unless you specifically did actually do the testing. Unfortunately it is becoming a bit of a worldwide concern with flooding. You look at modern houses, we don't have enough ventilation.
Amina: Patients that I might see that live in cities, in town house, air con their walls are made of gyprock, cellulose type building in the walls, that's the perfect food for mould. And as I said, it can grow in a couple of days, but it's also a lot of mould to air bourne, it can be in the air. I find a lot of people, especially if they're sick, they don't manage to get outside. They're not letting the air get in the house enough. That can be actually a big problem as well, leading to a whole lot of symptoms.
Mason: What are the symptoms? Is it going to be the same symptoms if someone's got this gene or this constitution that's susceptible to say someone who isn't susceptible as much, based on their constitution but has a compromised immune system? Are you basically going to get symptoms of mould infection being the same?
Amina: Yeah, I think so. I have tested people that haven't got those particular genotypes and they're still affected by mould, because mould at the end of the day it's pretty toxic, and if someone's already cold damp type of constitution and they're already compromised immune system, they've already got infection, mould and fungal infections are just another load for the body. Bacteria, and viruses, and parasites, and heavy metal toxins and so forth.
Mason: Cocktail of Western health. And is it something, because that's one thing I've noticed in folks who have taken on a bit of mould toxicity or fungal infection, infection gets deep enough, it almost seems to start shifting and changing their constitution to being one that's down. Whether that's an intentional desire of the infections that have-
Amina: Yeah, that's right, yeah.
Mason: That's fascinating. I think that's worth acknowledging. But what I want to know is what are these symptoms first of all? How is somebody going to tell if there is mould affecting them?
Amina: Initially, if mould is slowly growing in a house or a home, or even just things like people maybe have ... There's a lot of paints now. Back in the 70s they would put antifungal properties in paints, so these fungus have now, and the moulds have come resistant to the paints, so they've become super moulds as well. If someone say moved into a new place and it is mouldy, they might initially get allergy type symptoms, like red sore eyes, a bit sneezing.
Amina: Most of my patients, including myself actually, I can smell it. When you walk into a place, you can smell the mould. If you know about it and you're sensitive, you just pick it up immediately. So [inaudible 00:12:00] affected by mould, I'll be like getting out straight away.
Amina: The symptoms, you can smell it. You can never assume by looking and seeing because, like I said, there's a lot of moulds you can't see. The spores are so tiny, so I'll talk about the testing shortly, but other symptoms are, in the long term, chronic fatigue, a lot of brain focus, a lot of brain concentration problems, so just can't thinking properly, just can't think right. They've got short term memory loss and forgetting words, that sort of thing, so concentration. Patients can get coughs, asthma, a lot of flu like symptoms, cold sinus congestion can be quite common.
Amina: What I find is a lot of these people do tend to develop a lot of multiple chemical sensitivities, so they are more prone to sensitivities, to smells and sound and light and can get dizzy, Vertigo, little dizzy spells. As I mentioned, the cold temperature in tolerance. And then it can go more sort of severe muscle weakness, muscle pain, joint pain.
Amina: If some of the hormones due to inflammation in the brain are imbalanced can actually affect your antidiuretic hormone that can cause little static electric shock type feeling, tingling, numbness and GIT symptoms, nausea, lack of appetite and in the long term, serious cases of almost anxiety, depression and even Alzheimer's type symptoms.
Amina: It's very vast array of symptoms, which it's very hard to sort of diagnose. All of those symptoms, that could sound like a number of-
Mason: Yeah, that could sound like everything I was saying like there's correlations there with other-
Amina: Absolutely, and the thing is, it's the mycotoxins that are present in the dead fungal spores. It's not just painting up or trying to use bleach or clove oil or whatever people do, is not going to remove the dead spores, so it's something that needs to be dealt with properly. But the person really needs to remove themselves from that environment and at the same time work on their internal environment holistically.
Mason: This is something I feel like that's coming up straight away is that if there's like a structural issue with the house, if there's gyprock on the wall, if it's not draining compensation effectively, et cetera, et cetera, it's going to be a house susceptible to mould and spreading spores, that needs to be looked at.
Mason: Then going down a little bit further, what do you do just in your house, just some little hacks in your house to ensure that you're not going to be developing mould? And then finally, if you did find mould, rather than bleaching it and clove oiling it, do you have any little tips to get that cleared, especially [inaudible 00:14:31].
Amina: Okay. Well it would be, for myself personally in my house, I make sure that I do ventilate the house as much as possible. Windows open, doors open, make sure blankets and things are dried properly and not leaving wet towels around, so little things like that. And then obviously if there's been a lot of wet weather, really trying to air things out more. Cooking, making sure ... A lot of people when they cook, they don't have the ventilation, so a lot of ... I remember someone that was renting a house of mine used to make bone broths and I'd recommended to make the bone broths. And then she was complaining to the house was very mouldy, and it was really mouldy. Realized they were just boiling up saucepans constantly without [inaudible 00:15:07]. I recommended [inaudible 00:15:08] for that. But yeah, definitely making sure you've got enough ventilation.
Amina: If someone's very ill and they're sensitive to mould, I wouldn't recommend that they be the person to clean the mould. If it's just a little bit of mould, you can clean things like borax, I've heard it's very helpful. One of the best things to do if you are concerned is to actually do an ERMI test, which is an Environmental Relative Moldiness Index. You can do that, there's a company in Australia called MouldLab, and they're really, really helpful.
Amina: Basically the test will test for 36 types of mould in your house, so it's a swab test. They send you a little swab and you actually dap in around, behind your wardrobe, and behind the bed, and in the lounge and couple of different rooms, and they'll test the most common 36 moulds and give you a scale of how toxic they are in the house. That's an [inaudible 00:15:57] test.
Amina: And then, if it's quite high and someone is very sick, I would recommend that they get the proper mould remediators in, because it could be due to a floody or leaking taps behind the washing machine or something, and the wall's all damaged, you'd need really someone professional to come in, because they actually block off the area with plastic sheets. They wear suits and masks, and everyone leaves the house for a day or so. And they remove the mould properly so the spores aren't going to be. Otherwise the spores will land on everything, books, clothes, that sort of thing.
Mason: And this is really serious business as well, right? This is in literally anything you sneeze at. Especially I think about that when you talk about that correlation between Alzheimer's. We quickly went over this before we jumped on this chat, but can you just talk about your experience with the correlation between that newer degeneration in mould infection?
Amina: What we found is the mycotoxins or the toxins of the mould actually get into the system. And if someone has, as we've talked about before, some detoxing compromisation, they're not able to detox some of those genes, maybe that just mean they can't eliminate heavy metals and mould out of their body, then they're going to hold onto these mycotoxins in the body, and they will get into the bloodstream. And, they tend to gravitate towards the brain, crossing the blood brain barrier, and this is a big problem for a lot of psychological issues, depression and anxiety, those sort of symptoms as well.
Amina: What happens is the mycotoxins get into the brain and damage really healthy brain tissue and your healthy cells and just literally kill the cells off. For example, parts of the brain will actually get act atrophy, so they actually like the hippocampus, that's really important for memory and focus and concentration will actually perish. It'll actually start shrinking. You can reverse that as you can actually reverse Alzheimer's symptoms, but it's something that you really need to be working specifically with the patient on.
Amina: But there's a Dr. Dale [inaudible 00:17:54] in America, I've seen him lecture a couple of times, and he has actually shown different types of Alzheimer's, and there's a particular subtype of Alzheimer's that actually is more susceptible to mould and more likely, like the person will be impacted by the mould and more likely get Alzheimer's from that. So he's got like different subtypes, the first type's inflammatory, and then he's got noninflammatory, and then he's got the cortical type, and they're the type of patients that actually will be more prone to get Alzheimer's.
Amina: He's looked at this just because of testing the amount of toxins in people, that they've often inhaled and he has shown a correlation with these types of symptoms and they're calling it the chronic inflammatory response syndrome due to these bio toxins and mycotoxins.
Mason: Okay. Getting it out of the brain, getting it out of the body, have you got any specifics? This is something I've spoken to quite a few people, especially the people that grew up in the tropics, they'll say [inaudible 00:18:50] they're just like a vector for that deep mould, or fungal infection. It's like kind of planning at some point to get in there and do a very deep scrum out. What are your favorite ways to do this?
Amina: Well first of all, the person does need to really look at the environment, so they need to get out of the mould or have the mould worked on as we'd talked about, because there's no point trying to get treatment if you're living in a room that's full of mould. Like I said, it can be everywhere and anywhere, so you'd need to work out what's going on there.
Amina: And then, it's really treating the body, and it's not too different to how I would treat any sort of chronic stealth infection, but there's a few things that I do specifically with mould. For example, the whole body does need to be treated, and I use herbs, I use nutrients, we look at the diet. For example, one of the most important areas I think is working on inflammation because at the end of the day, mould creates inflammation, and the worst part of inflammation I think is going to cause pain and this brain neurology symptoms.
Amina: Antiinflammatory actions are absolutely needed to come to the rescue, so I use a lot of herbs, pretty much all the herbs I'll use with mould tested patients are antiinflammatory, and herbs that are really good with the micro circulation, so things like ginger and Ginkgo biloba and ginseng. Rosemary's a very good one, a very antifungal and really good for micro circulation.
Mason: And especially those two, yeah Ginkgo, micro circulation in the brain. Can you talk a little bit more to that? If you're increasing micro circulation, what's actually occurring within these pockets of the body? You've got ginger and ginseng as well associated with the brain, but you've kind of like gone all over the body making sure that there's circulation getting into the depths. What happens when you do that?
Amina: Well, for example, like ginger and garlic, the ginseng, they'll actually help thin the blood, so patients that are on taking too much Aspirin or blood thinners must not be on these. You must have it professionally prescribed. But, because we're talking quite therapeutic doses here, yeah, so ginger for example, it'll thin the blood, it's an anti inflammatory so the blood's going to be flowing a lot easier. It's anti inflammatory, so it's going to work on binding to those inflammatory toxins and helping eliminate them out of the body as well as soothing the membranes of the cells.
Amina: Ginger is also very warming. One thing that's very important with these patients is to make sure that we warm their yin and get them ... This can take a lot of time, this isn't something ... It's not a quick treatment, it's something they need to change their diet, I'll talk about later as well. We need warming, we need this microcirculation stimulation.
Amina: And when you're using herbs like Ginkgo and like tumeric and boswellia for inflammation in the brain, those herbs will actually cross the blood brain barrier and actually help find to toxins but also will help reduce that inflammation. There have been studies to show that boswellia and tumeric have both been worked very well with atrophy of the hippocampus to actually help restore memory and focus, and actually reverse symptoms. There are a number of other things that patients need to do as well, but there are studies just showing that those particular herbs can be very helpful.
Mason: I'm curious about Ginkgo, with Ginkgo, and especially been interested in [inaudible 00:22:04] just kind of really connected with the plant when I was ever in Oregon recently at a herbal conference, and have you got any particular kind of constitution or person that ginkgo especially works for? Especially if there's some genetic tracks in terms of susceptibility to degeneration that you would put someone on ginkgo?
Amina: Yeah, there are people who do have problems with collagen, ginkgo is really healing and it's really good to help with connective tissue healing, so those people that are more sensitive to muscle twisting and pain, or if people have had any sort of ... And [inaudible 00:22:33] is another one that will also work really nicely here, just to help heal tissue, and again help the circulation from antiinflammatory as well. Those types of patients that are more susceptible to I guess body tears and inflammation generally aches and pains.
Mason: Okay good to know. I'm just so attracted to it at the moment, not really questioning it, just going with it, but just wanted to get your take on it.
Amina: Ginkgo's a great herb. I actually grow ginkgo and I've got pots of it in my garden and they say to have, I've got it growing wild all over my property, but I've got a few pots that I just go out and five leaves a day recommended, and it will keep you young and feeling good apparently [inaudible 00:23:13] anyway. I love it. There are quite bitter tasting herbs, but if anyone does have ginkgo, ginkgo grows quite freely all around Queensland, like a lot of paddocks, especially if there are cows, you'll see brunches ginkgo biloba. It's an easy herb to get hold of, or otherwise you can take [inaudible 00:23:29] and there's tablet forms are a lot stronger as well.
Mason: Love that. And now I'm curious about the immunological aspect, bringing in a herbal strategy, especially for mould poisoning. What's your immune strategy? Obviously there's always going to be immune suppression if the infection's been able to actually take hold or if that's actually going to be the cause of it.
Mason: From what I can tell, once it's in the body and in the tissue, especially if there is dampness, it's very difficult for the immune system to get ahead of how that infection's going to be spreading. It's almost conscious. I'm wondering what your longterm strategy is with that.
Amina: Okay, so with the actions, as I've mentioned, antiinflammatory and [inaudible 00:24:10] we've got this, the microcirculation is supported and using the warming herbs and often anti allergenic herbs, so a lot of herbs don't forget have many actions and a lot of the actions overlap, so you can make a synergy of herbs and they're doing a number of different things in the body.
Amina: Of course I'll aim for the antifungal and anti microbial type herb, I'll go into those in a minute. And the herbs, I like them to have's antioxidant effects, so things like your tumeric and your Rosemary, very good there. You're looking at nutrients and products that are also going to be binding to the mycotoxins, because you want to get the mycotoxins out that are stagnant and won't get out of these people.
Amina: This is the tricky bit, but with the correct type of detoxification support, this can be done because people do get better. It is a slow process, so I'll tell you, and I also make sure we give appropriate adrenal and nervous system support because the nervous system, it's often because the mycotoxins will affect and cause a lot of those neurodegenerative type symptoms. They're not like just the brain ones, but as we said the body pains as well.
Amina: For example, tumeric actually has had, there're studies that show it has an aflatoxigenic effect, so just using vivo., it has actually helped, this is also the essential oil mind you, but it has actually helps against Aspergillus flavus, so that's a type of mould toxin that's quite prevalent around Queensland especially and can be around our homes.
Amina: There's not that many medical studies showing specific herbs within the body of eliminating because the studies just haven't been done. There are a lot of studies showing herbs and essential oils to be used in vivo, and I'm not talking about eating essential oils, that's not something I'm recommending at all. But I'm talking about these are just ... Sorry, and vitro studies to actually get rid of the mould and the fungus. What you need to do is make sure you've got them in a synergistic herbal medicine or incorporating them into your diet.
Amina: Things that I'll use a lot for mould, like the allergy types and just bake or skullcap, for example, because a lot of people that have the mould symptoms do have a lot of allergies. Goldenseal is really good, anti Candida or antifungal. Akinesia, I use stacks of because I think it's so good for immune support. It also has work on the adrenals as well, great in mould illness, just to generally support the immune system. Thyme, another great antifungal clove, garlic. There's so many we can use.
Amina: I encourage people to use those within their diet as well, if they can be growing any of those herbs, have abundance of a big green herbal salad, not just a plain lettuce and tomato and cucumber sort of thing.
Mason: Good call.
Amina: Some people get particularly affected by their lungs, so I might give them herbs like elecampane, licorice, pelargonium's a good one for children.
Mason: Okay, because this is something that's going to show, say if you get like a Lyme infection, you're going to be finding out where the susceptibility is possibly within your structure and your joints, and where you might have the weak spots. Kind of the same with like the amount of toxins very much now with [inaudible 00:27:08] wherever they want, like I'm kind of feeling and the organ susceptibility or the organ strength or Qi within your constitution you're going to get symptoms in that area and it's going to show you where you have susceptibility. Is that the way it works or is it generally going to be more the lungs that are going to attract that?
Amina: No, I think again it's similar to how stealth infections will affect the body. I think the mould, well inflammation will affect people in their weakest link. Someone who's more susceptible to asthma or bronchitis will probably get more affected in the lungs. Depends on the type of mould as well, there's different types of mould. You've got the Aspergillus penicilloides that's your dry type of mould that you just see like it's a bit blue and dusty in the back of chairs or something like that.
Mason: But generally not as much to worry about, since it is in a dry environment.
Amina: Yeah, I think you need to worry about all of it. It's still not good because the dry ones are the ones that can get into the lungs as well. It can be common in the air condition, house dust, even dried foods. But if someone is mould sensitive, they're going to be affected by these. If they're already mould sensitive and have exposure to mycotoxins, then they're going to react more to that type of mould.
Mason: Is that like I'm not very damp, I'm not very cold. I'm kind of cool on the fungal side, and then I just think back despite the fact that I'm more ... I'm quite dry in my constitution, I just kind of remember that whole thing that got me into this is I had fungus coming out of my arms in my early 20s especially after doing ski seasons in Australia, where I got my big jacket on. Because many people during winter, a big jacket on, no sun, sweating it up on the skin and everyone starts to kind of exacerbate their fungal stuff. I'm not immune despite the fact that you know I've got-
Amina: No one is really, because it still can affect everyone. You don't just have to have those particular Genotypes to be affected. It really comes down to everything in the right balance, doesn't it? If we're living in a mouldy environment, we're not getting out enough, and we're cold and we've got that damp constitution, and we've got an array of pathogens going on, and we're not eating well, and we're eating raw cold damp type foods, then we've got the perfect constitution to be affected. And if the mould's there, like I said, it can be just different types of mould.
Amina: There's the nasty mould as well. The aspergillus versicolor. There's the mould that can be around your garden, if you've got lots of damp leaves or compost, like gardens that sort of gather, you haven't done your gardening properly and things build up after a rainy, that mould can be really effective as well. And then there's [inaudible 00:29:34] that's the black type of mould. That's probably one of the worst ones.
Mason: That's the one that's kind of like getting time in the sun at the moment, that black mould infection, right?
Amina: Yeah, it's not good, and that's the one that can cause a lot of neurological symptoms, a lot of tremors, loss of vision, so people get sort of bleary eyes, that sort of thing. And then there's a Wallemia, which is airborne, which you wouldn't even see, and that can cause a lot of asthma. There's just a few, there's hundreds and hundreds of types of mould.
Amina: You can do these early tests as I suggested in your home, but you might not be in a position to be doing that. It might be at work that you've got this mould, so if you can't be away from it, then you need to really work on your body and make sure that you're taking either really good foods, herbal medicine support, nutritional support, that's keeping the immune system strong, healthy, noninflammatory, alkaline.
Amina: There are specific treatments when I'm looking at treating someone with mold. We'll work on the immune system, deal with the antifungal, make sure they're detoxing well, and then I'll bring some natural binders in.
Amina: There are medications that you can get such as Colestyramine that medical doctors in America are using that will bind these mycotoxins. Some patients can take them and some patients can't, so it's really something they'd have to discuss with their doctor. But I find that the patients I see, the ones that often can't take those types of medications-
Mason: Or maybe just don't want to, right?
Amina: It all [inaudible 00:30:58] medication actually, hasn't been used for years, but now it's used as a binder, so there are side effects, and the ones that you can get, the one that is the most common and the cheaper version has Aspartame in it, so it's not exactly a great choice for people who are super sensitive. They don't realize that, and then they ended up their symptoms are even more worse, because they have chemical sensitivities and as we know Aspartame is not something that anyone wants to be taking, so I don't know why they would do that.
Amina: I use natural binders, and it's just using with herb's chlorella activated charcoal, pepsin, butyrate, and I'll use diet [inaudible 00:31:31] and bentonite clays, you have to have a bit of a rotating system because I don't want the person on the same binding product.
Mason: Yeah. I'm glad you actually said that because that's something that I have always intuitively done. I'll buy different types of clay if I see them, so I've got my bentonite, I've got a bit of red and got green clay, and I'll circulate those as well with charcoal, because I don't like doing charcoal every day, maybe every two weeks I'll do my charcoal. And then likewise, with chlorellas and these kinds of things.
Mason: I'm glad you mentioned that and kind of got them grouped under this, and same with [inaudible 00:32:00], under this kind of category of binders, because it feels like it's an area that people come to me anyway being confused, like should I take clay everyday? Should I take this every day? It's like look, basically there's a category that helps find whatever's floating through your system.
Amina: Yeah, [inaudible 00:32:13] because the thing is, everything has their place. You should never take too much of something for a long time. Well I'd say the exception of there's a few herb you can take longterm and I think there's things like vitamin C, and essential fatty acids, that goes without saying. When it comes to things like the binders, you need to rotate them. And some of the full on antifungal herbs and antibacterial herbs and anti parasitic herbs, you want to have a good system that you're being able to work with different cycles.
Amina: With the binders, it's important to be mindful that things like charcoal, it's used traditionally to help stop diarrhea and it binds to bacteria in the gut, but it will also bind to good minerals as well, so you need to be careful that you're not depleting a lot of minerals. You're best to do it, like I'll give persons, say they'll have herbal medicine and I use a lot of anti biofilm type herbal medicine because moulds [inaudible 00:33:05] live in biofilms just as much as bacteria and virus as well. I'll work on a bit of a antibacterial, anti pathogenic anti mould, fungal herbs within a formula to be busting biofilms. I might use some proteolytic enzymes.
Mason: Let's talk about the biofilm aspect really quickly, because it's something, over the years people go, "You know, I had some mould, so I've started doing a little bit of chlorella and some clay and some green juice, and I'm fasting and I'm going to bust through this thing." I kind of got a wake up call when I started looking into biofilms and just how gnarly they could be and how gnarly I can get and how long it can take to eventually chip away to get to the core infection.
Mason: Can you just as quickly talk about ... Give us some appreciation based on your perspective. I'm sure you've seen some pretty bad ass biofilms in your day, and it's going to take a while to get through. But that process of chipping away and then breaking up that biofilm, what are you using and what do you have to be wary of?
Amina: Okay, well if someone has biofilm, well everyone is naturally was going to have some kind of biofilms in the system. They've been around for thousands of years and it's the bacterial and another pathogens way of survival, so depending on how long the biofilms have been there and how virulent the bacteria are in there, because they're pretty clever. They'll get together and build a good shelter for themselves.
Amina: Depending on that, and depending on the patient's constitution, so I would never have a new patient with lots of severe symptoms and anxiety and brain fog and pain and stress and not got nausea and stuff, I would never go into get into the biofilms because when you start busting biofilms, you literally want to bust through the walls of the biofilm. Biofilms can be quite hard because like the plaque on your teeth can be biofilm and the slippery stuff that's in works, on works in rivers can be biofilms, but if they've been there for a while, lots of other minerals like calcium, magnesium actually are trapped into it, so it's quite hard, so it needs to be penetrated.
Amina: There are a couple of medications that are meant to be helping with biofilms, but there's a lot of side effects from them as well. Once you got to penetrate the biofilms, so things like digestive enzymes, I might start in a very sensitive patient, or I might go into the proteolytic enzymes like sera peptide. When I start the biofilm protocol on my patient, which is actually not a protocol, I'll change it purpose, but I've already worked on the inflammation, we've already given the nervous system support. I've looked at their diet, they're having an anti inflammatory alkaline type diet. We prepare them, already given some gentle detox, some tumeric and some Schisandra, and some [inaudible 00:35:34] to make sure that their liver's okay and given them liver support.
Amina: When they're okay and they've had immune support, it's like you want to be treating the bacteria that's migrating around the body freely and the fungals and the mould, the mycotoxins are just going to be there. They're kind of the last thing you need to be dealing with. And then when you come in with this treatment, you bust the biofilms with the enzymes. Then they might take their good immune support like antifungal within half an hour from taking the Sera peptides for example, and then I'll get them to take the detox powder or whatever detox support I'm giving them.
Amina: And what I get patients to do I the evening or away from a meal is to do their binders. So they're not actually having the binders with the meal, because you're literally busting the biofilms, in comes the antibacterial support, and then you're detoxing, making sure the person's drinking lots of water. Dry body brushing is a really great tip for anyone with mould sensitivities, because you're desquamating the skin, you're exfoliating the dead skin cells that are the biggest channel of elimination.
Amina: You actually get rid of a lot of toxins just by dry body brushing daily, and then you're just making sure the bodies gets flushed out. By doing that whole sort of process of liver support, immune support, and all the anti pathogen support together with the binders, you really start seeing results, and people will start feeling better. It's not a quick process, it does take a while and you do have to be quite gentle with treatment because you can't rush bursting by it. It's not like you can get a gurney in there and flush them all out, you have to work slowly and you're working on a cellular level.
Amina: If you start trying to stir up too much then you're going to get a lot more neurological symptoms because as nervous cells get damaged and so forth.
Mason: I find that area particularly fascinating and it's an area where I just get the most respect for all those pathogens and kind of makes me want to kind of like, in a very cheeky way, step up and go to war with them. Not an angry way, I'm just like, especially when you see ... I'm sure you've seen huge arthritis mounds on a person's hand, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, like the blockages in Qi that these biofilms can create that lead to a lot of the degenerative diseases. Would you agree with that or is it something that you have less attention on?
Amina: I do, and I do feel like that sometimes as well. But then I also think we had these biofilms and bacterias and pathogens around for thousands of years, probably millions. And so it's our bodies that are changing. They're just doing their thing. Cave men and Neanderthals would have had mouldiness when they've had a lot of rain and they're sitting around their caves and their leathers would've got all damp, that's normal, but our ... Mind you, they only lived in their 30s in those days anyway, so we're not doing too badly.
Amina: But I think our constitutions have changed. We're a lot more sensitive. We've got, talking about the gut microbiome and all of that has a very massive role in the health of the microbiome, in how someone's going to react to mould, for example. Those factors we talked about in our last podcast is another just good to reminder, because they're all very relevant, but it's the way we're living now in these sort of houses and just things that made out of material that aren't able to breathe properly, and so things just sort of build up.
Amina: There is a lot more obviously, weather changes a lot more weather changes that are affecting us so that when it rains it really, really rains. Yeah, I think that there's quite a few factors that are contributing to the problems that we've got with mould now.
Amina: If you look at someone's living near rivers or a lake or something like that, that's another thing to take into factor that there's a lot of toxic algae that growing and ... I just went up to Emerald and Sapphire and Ruby, they were beautiful places and there's a big lake up there and it had a big sign, don't swim in the water. If you drink anything, contact your doctor because of the algae. Well that has a similar effect of the mould in the body, can be a really toxic biotoxin and make people really sick.
Mason: That's become a huge [inaudible 00:39:34] actually, especially in the blue green algae and even though people are saying that spirulina being somewhat of a vector, even spirulina supplements and just kind of like ... I've had people call me and pretty much just want to tell me their story of getting on to climate lake algaes as well as on their local environment and just pretty much just saying how toxic it is and how it's just like flying under the radar and being, getting in there subtly and then over a few years causing extreme neuro degeneration.
Mason: It's something I got to look into. I can't say whether it is the supplementation, well I think that's a bit extreme. At the same time, it's one of these things that's just not quite in the public sphere, only those people that it's affecting heavily and it seems to be another one like mould that needs to come to the forefront because we've got a [inaudible 00:40:16] that's going on in our environment.
Amina: Yeah, that's right. I'm a big fan of my herbs obviously being a herbalist, but I think you have to be mindful of what you're taking and how often you're taking as far as certain supplements and I think you can as much as you can eat ... The diet is imperative and bringing those, really encouraging those phytonutrients from our plants. My garden, I've got thyme, garlic, oregano, your basic herbs, but really encouraging using those in your meals, so just prepping handfuls of things and mixing them into salads and lunches and actually eating lots more greens and vegetables, and making sure ... A lot of people I find that have mould sensitivities do tend to gravitate, not everyone, but do tend to gravitate more towards mould type foods.
Amina: Like for example, moulds can be hidden in some of the worst ones are coffee beans.
Mason: The mycotoxins even they're doing the transportation.
Amina: Yeah, peanuts, corn, for example. I've actually had people that have been so sensitive and they're like, "Oh yes, I've been ... I'm fine but whenever I have my coffee it really disturbs me." It could be even the mycotoxins in the coffee, so you just got to be careful. If it's fresh, it's a bit difficult with coffee because probably best to not have it at all. And avoiding things like sugar because your fructose ad your processed sucrose and even your lactose in milk are certainly going to affect patients that have mould sensitivities in your dairy. Generally ice cream is the worst.
Amina: And mouldy foods, leftover foods, there is definitely something about the traditional anti candida type diets, like trying to have food that that's fresh. Mold will grow on, like rice, I think I saw a documentary years ago and they showed different foods and how quickly the mold grows overnight. And because the sugar in rice, rice was one of the fastest growing mould foods in this particular study, it was just sort of groove and I saw it as abundant in mould. And processed meats, and your salty meats-
Mason: Was it cooked rice or dried rice?
Amina: Oh no, this is cooked, left over food.
Mason: Let's sit there and it's in a fridge that's possibly already got a couple of mould spores. This is basic stuff that you'd kind of like, I know [inaudible 00:42:23] you think about like when you move, first move out of home and your standard's lower, and then you get a little bit older and you realize this whole cleanliness thing-
Amina: Absolutely. This is exactly what happens. I have a friend who recently moved into an apartment, well he's actually bought a house, but he's living downstairs, and I went into his apartment and sort of I was like ... it's a bit dingy in here. I felt, I didn't say that. I was about, Oh, it's a bit dingy and a bit dump. I sort of think too much of it. And then my friend just recently, he's been there about a year, has been complaining of joint pain. He's young, you know what I mean? I'll talked about the mold in his face. He goes, "Yes, that's what it is."
Amina: I'm like, "You can't be sleeping in that mould every day. So it's something ... I actually had a patient not too long ago and I said, are you aware of mould in the house? She lives in a unit in Melbourne, and she says, no, but it was really funny, we had this birthday cake, and there was slice left and no one put it away, and they woke up the next morning and there were these inch long like really tall, thin spindly mould things growing on the top of the cake.
Amina: Those mold spores were obviously floating around in the apartment [inaudible 00:43:30] cake, because they like [inaudible 00:43:32] there's the sugar and boom, they grew. They wouldn't have just been there in the cake. The cake doesn't go mouldy that quick. They have to have came an external source because the cake had only been baked that day. So it was interesting, I'm like, yeah, if you've got mold in your house, let's take it out. And sure enough, they were quite high levels.
Amina: Again, it doesn't have to be blue and crawling down the bathroom wall or black and rotting the floorboards that you may not see the mould. If you see it, then you probably have more of a significant problem. So that's the thing that I think people aren't aware of.
Amina: I have a number of patients that are doing what they call a mould sabbatical where they're actually going and living intense just to be out of that because they can't be in their home. That's very severe and it's very sad when that happened. There are doctors in America that specialize in mould treatment and tell people to walk away, just take your driving license, which is really extreme, but this is what people are actually doing.
Mason: It is extreme. I somewhat get it, especially when I can feel, I mean I don't know whether this is a little out there. In terms of feeling the susceptibility that we have in our biology has to the, not necessarily the agenda, but just the way that mould and fungus moves and none of the bad way tries to take us over. Because as you were saying, it's a lot to do with our susceptibility and our environment, but they can just be or how opportunistic it is and just naturally I have a healthy fear of wanting that to not catch in my body.
Mason: When we got back from earlier in the year, the people that had moved in, one of them was from Melbourne, one of them's from New Zealand and they didn't have just the basic understanding around air flow through a household consistently, just little things. And so we got back and it rained and so our mattress, several of our clothes, lots of blankets, they had mould. Where it was just an absolute no brainer from us from the very beginning, we took that, I got into the tip and got it out of my life immediately.
Mason: It's just an absolute no brainer for me to do that. I'd probably suggest that for most people listening, it might seem paranoid, but depending on your intention, if you listen to this podcast, probably have an intent for a very nice, long, happy, healthy life and there's just no room for mould spores or susceptibility to it. It's not worth-
Amina: If you can, if you can get rid of stuff, if it's mouldy, you'd have to wash it at pretty high temperatures, in a lot of borax sort of thing and it's not an area very well and put them in the tumble dry or afterwards. I don't know if you ever remember, well, you're too young to remember this, but I remember my mum had a flat sleep, which is like a big square tin box. It's in England and she'd had that. She's still got it now from 19 she was young so from the late 1940s it's still works because things work better when they're old like that and she would put the clothes in it just to air them, so many houses in England they're living in a damper the situation would have this flat sleep, but I've never seen one over here. Have you ever heard of one?>
Mason: Never heard of it.
Amina: Yeah, I don't know if any of your listeners would know about a flat [inaudible 00:46:23] but yes, it's actually mum used to always say the old wives tale don't go out with wet hair. That's a Chinese medicine philosophy because it's stamped the wind and the cold will get to you. And not walking around bare feet. Every house in Australia seems to have cold tiles where people walk around bare feet, and if you can feel the cold then it's going right in your kidney channel, which is a point right in the middle of the sole of your foot and that majorly weakens your energy, weakens your Qi, makes you more susceptible to kidney Qi deficiency, which you're going to feel more cold.
Amina: People get dark under the eyes and maybe more back pain and knee pain and that can just be a kidney Qi deficient sign. Often people end up there, makes them more susceptible to cold and damp, yeah.
Mason: Lots of awesome things to consider. Have you got any resources at your site for people listening?
Amina: I have my book that I've written a lot about mould treatment in there. That's Lyme Natural on my lymenmatural.com website.
Mason: Okay, one word LymeNatural?
Amina: Yes. Www.lymenatural.com. Resources, I'm not sure really because I've kind of gathered my research from everywhere and experience-
Mason: The fact that you've got that book, talking about mould already, it's the same as well having that kind of understanding around the correlations of Lyme. I think it's good for, you know, they were kind of like done a two part series now especially talking about two major stealth pathogens that we really need to be aware of. If people are wanting to go a little bit deeper, I think picking up your book is a good idea because you've laid out all the protocols or just like insights.
Amina: Yeah, and I've gone into details of the different body systems and how they're affected by these stealth infections and moulds and look, there's a big section on all the different herbs, more my favorite herbs and I use so many, but there's ... My favorite herbs that I'll use 28 herb, and how they can be used, and nutrients, and dietary and some case studies in there as well.
Amina: And there's a bit of information on the website and yeah, I think the biggest take home, I think if I can just verify, is just to be mindful of what is around your home. Just be mindful of having enough ventilation and making sure that if there is a bit of mould in the house that it needs to get dealt with. So we always open the shower, the window in the shower rooms and dry that shower curtain out, make some towels, I hang out. Little things like that can be really helpful.
Amina: And if you have air cons, make sure you get them cleaned professionally. Don't be sitting in a mouldy car that's got mouldy carpets and rugs. You should be able to smell it, but pull back behind the bed and have a little look. And maybe if it's just a case of getting the borax out and having to clean around and making sure that you do it on a sunny day, and just having things aired out. And having the right sort of like if you use a vacuum cleaner, there are ones that will help filter dust a lot easier, so try to keep your house as cluster free so that mould isn't going to be able to gather.
Amina: If you've got material or [inaudible 00:49:13] lying around, it's more likely things are going to be, mould is going to be more attracted there. So just being mindful of the environment and eating warm foods, nice healthy veggie stir fries and foods that's going to give you that Qi and help your yang and spices warm up cinnamon and cloves and chili and peppers and things like that.
Mason: I've met a lot of people [inaudible 00:49:38] I came from the rural community, and a lot of people are from the rural community that eventually get bitten on the ass by the fact that either they've already had a damp and cold and the in dominant constitution, or they've driven it that way, and then all of a sudden you're opening up to the immune deficiency and the wetness and dampness that comes with it-
Amina: I agree 100%. And don't forget all humans are different and there are some constitutions that may be able to tolerate it-
Mason: That's like me.
Amina: Yeah, other constitutes, myself personally, I can't do cold. I've done, I've got to always have warming and it's a big part of health. You look at it from a Chinese medicine perspective, and if you haven't got that gut, you end up with that damn spleen, they call it as well. You've got to be part of the immune health. A lot of systems don't work as well when you've got that sort of constitution.
Mason: That's something that I'd recommend everyone listening to like as the damp spleen thing, I used to roll y eyes at it. That was heavily because when I was raw, I have organically is very strong digestive system and I was continuing to rocket on rural, and the reason I changed was purely by instinct. There weren't any symptoms, it wasn't anything wrong. I'm sure I could've got there eventually, but I've got one of these constitutions that could have kept on perpetuating that diet. It was time for a change,.
Mason: But it's worth looking into and thinking about the physiological effects, that just constant cold, green, raw foods are going to have through the stomach, through the spleen, secreting into the stomach. Kind of like even thinking of that analogy of that fire, like the fire, the stomach yang organ heating up that spleen, that spleen Qi energy. I'm just putting forward, it's worth considering physiologically what's happening through that organ system and how that's reacting to particular foods.
Mason: Don't just bypass that one because I've seen, even recently, a lot of people who are putting themselves back a couple of years in terms of a regeneration protocol after heavily blowing out the flame on their digestive system with a raw diet.
Amina: It's hard to put it back. Once the fire is out in Chinese medicine, it's hard to put that yang back, but it does over a period of time, taking the right herbs, eating the right food, nurturing yourself, keeping your back warm. These young girls with midriff tops and they've got all their back exposed and you think Chinese medicine, when we lived in China, you'd never see anyone do that. That would just be absolutely ludicrous to expose your kidney, so that whole thing, to be going out with wet hair.
Amina: I'd go back to England and walking around my home town and it was going out for the evening, it's freezing, it's cold and they're wearing midriff tops, wet hair, and it's just big red flags, not good.
Mason: It's tough because that's just like what they're going to do, it's what they want to do and it's like, how do you kind of bring this information forth?
Amina: Well you can't [crosstalk 00:52:23] but that's the sort of thing people don't realize as well, that it can be quite damaging from that perspective.
Mason: And just before we go, I just want to touch on you talking about how hard it is to get that yang back, if you have gone ... If you've organically you have digestive system that's quite weaker, a spleen that's quite damp and have a slow metabolism. I always kind of see those spleen vibes, if it's like a stove and you've got the fire, the stomach and the pot of soup in the spleen, and the pilot light to show that you're actually able to get some heat up there being the kidney yang.
Mason: What you were saying is like when it's hard to get that back, if you turn that flame off, if you turn it off, you can't just turn that back on immediately. That protocol of building back kidney yang, kidney Qi. I just wanted to like ... We've spoken about it quite a bit on the podcast before. However, do you want to just quickly leave people with that? Because I see it very much as a nice longterm solution. Whether people have gone down that route and put themselves via a diet.
Mason: And that's something, unfortunately again to say it like even the strongest constitutions with a longterm raw food diet. I've seen the excessively quick aging and decimation of the digestive system. I don't care who it is, I probably met them in the raw scene, or I've got some insider information about what's going on in their diet and their body and it's not good.
Mason: I just like you to finish off talking to us about that long term intent that people can have to bring in lifestyle choices. That is ensuring that yang kidney gene is sustained and able to give us that longterm protection from going excessively damp or cold, which most people who are dealing with mould, they're dealing with that.
Amina: Okay. Well, in summary, I think the best thing to do is to ... Talked a lot about diet but makes you were avoiding those cold dumps, sugary processed type foods that are going to contribute to that constitution, and to make sure to have, if it's windy, wrap up a little bit. If you're feeling a bit cool.
Amina: Another thing that can affect people are thyroid. Often people are hyperthyroid so they aren't feeling a bit cold. So get your thyroid treated, look at why you're hyperthyroid. Get onto the right herbal medications, the right diet, get the right support, look after the adrenals. [inaudible 00:54:36] the adrenal health will be really helpful with things like [inaudible 00:54:39], Akinesia, Schisandra, Astragalus, Rhodiola will actually simplify supporting your adrenals. You'll be helping with that constitution as well.
Amina: And Western herbal medicine, as I do myself or I recommend a lot of people with my husband, Byron Hillier, he's a Chinese medicine practitioner, so he gives patients Chinese medicine formula, so they are very specific formulas. I can't go into it detail because that's not my area of expertise, but they have specific formulas for these cold dump types of constitution depending on like Byron will check their pulse and their tongue analysis and their skin pallor and [inaudible 00:55:17] look at the physical symptoms.
Amina: And acupuncture can be very, very helpful because acupuncture can actually get that Qi flowing and moving. And as I recommended before, dry body brushing as can be so simple, warm Epsom salt bars, and just not walking around bare feet and getting fresh air and just sort of everything has to be cooked slightly. We've talked about the diet and that way, but I can't emphasize that enough. It's okay to have an apple or a bit of cold salad if you've got warm food to go with it. But if you're having cold, not that I can imagine your listeners would be having cold Weet-Bix with milk for breakfast, but that sort of thing for breakfast-
Mason: Yeah, of course.
Amina: Cold salad for lunch and then something juices or freezing cold water, don't drink water out of the fridge. Icy drinks aren't beneficial at all. Everything should be room temperature or warm herbal teas.
Mason: Great Amina, thank you. That's a lot to chew on. I'm feeling really rejuvenated from that. Not often [inaudible 00:56:15] have a conversation about something like mould, that's always like all right, here's the problem, here's the problem. This is what you do if you have a problem. I feel like this is a topic, and something that needs to come into the public's awareness more and more because it's a reality of living on this planet, and the reality of living, especially in industrial world, making sure that you've got eyes on it.
Mason: Going back to that kind of was very simple things that you're talking about, like this old wives kind of towns like airing out, drying out, allowing circulation to go through the house. We're finding how wise all little things are that the moms and grandmas were doing and thanks for bringing it back into the forefront and you're a regular now in the podcast, friend of the show and I look forward to having you on again.
Amina: Thank you so much. Thanks Mason. Thank you everybody.
Mason: Everybody, thank you so much for tuning in today. Now time to take that information, round it into your lifestyle so you can amplify your health to the next level. You can really help amplify the health of this podcast by going onto iTunes and subscribing, and leaving us a review. Really helps us spread this information around tonic herb, around sovereign health, further out there to the community so we can help more people experience the best out of this life. Thanks guys. I'll speak to you next time.