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Sexuality & Endogenous Psychedelics with Dr Jenny Martin Part 2 (EP#207)

Mason is joined by Dr Jenny Martin for the second instalment of their conversation exploring the connection between sexuality, altered states of consciousness, and endogenous psychedelics. In today's segment Dr Jenny takes us further into the cervix and its role in female pleasure, highlighting that women, by design, are innately wired to experience mystical states of consciousness through sex.

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Mason is joined by Dr Jenny Martin for the second instalment of their conversation exploring the connection between sexuality, altered states of consciousness, and endogenous psychedelics. In today's segment Dr Jenny takes us further into the cervix and its role in female pleasure, highlighting that women, by design, are innately wired to experience mystical states of consciousness through sex.

Dr Jenny take us on a wild ride into subtle realms that the body exists in and is a part of, traversing both the science and traditional lore on topics such as quantum and torsion physics, dark matter, piezoelectricity, Kirilian photography, the body's electromagnetic field, HeartMath and more. Exploring how the intelligence behind all of these theories and schools of thought can aid us in understanding our inherent capabilities and how to utilise and potentiate the capacity of our human form, both earthy and otherwise. 

Mason shares his knowledge in the area of Taoism, translating many of these concepts through the expression of Five Element Theory and the Taoist organ wheel, marrying the East vs West approach in a relatable and digestible way. 

Dr Jenny explains polyvagal theory through the lens of female pleasure, outlining the various elements of perception and stored trauma that can inhibit an individual's ability to experience bodily welfare regardless of the environmental safety that they may physically find themselves in. Furthering our understanding of the mind/body connection and the subtle energetics that are always at play, when engaging in sex, partnered or otherwise.

There is just so much terrain covered in this episode, with many threads to explore and tunnels to delve deep into, we are continuously invited to consider what and who we are beyond the confines of the literature we are strategically fed or allowed exposure to, and the societal structures and norms continually imposed on us. 

Take a moment, take a breath and let your psyche spiral around the mysteries and magic of your innate metaphysical nature.

Close up image of a pink rose.
 
" So when we think about sex for instance, we start to realise that it's not just body parts being connected together. We are energy systems and if you're holding for instance resentment towards your partner or on the other hand really open-hearted feelings of love and acceptance and worship and kindness and goodness. This is going to create a different vibrational field between the two of you".
- Dr Jenny Martin

Dr Jenny & Mason discuss:

  • Healing trauma through sexual practice.
  • Consciousness, physics and the multidimensional nature of the human body.
  • HeartMath and reaching altered states through sex.
  • Polyvagal theory, fear and female pleasure.
  • Social media and the colloqualisation of trauma.
  • Relationship as a gateway to spiritual development.
  • The intersection between sex, pleasure, and reproduction from a biological and spiritual perspective.

Who is Dr Jenny Martin ?

Dr. Jenny Martin is inspired by democratizing psychedelic states of consciousness and the healing possibilities that could result for the entire planet, and is passionate about helping people learn about the psychedelic potential that exists within us.

Dr. Jenny is on a mission to elevate our understanding of erotic love and the vital role human sexuality plays in accessing psychedelic states naturally. Dr Jenny is a Psychologist who draws on psychedelic science, biophysics, neuroscience, psychology and ancient wisdom in her training programs.

Resource guide

Guest Links
Dr Jenny Website
Dr Jenny Courses
Dr Jenny Substack

Mentioned In This Episode
Stealing Fire Book
Dr Daniel Keown
A Spark In The Machine Book
The Uncharted Body Book

Related Podcasts
Sexuality & Endogenous Psychedelics with Dr Jenny Martin Part 1 (EP#205)

Connect With Us
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Check Out The Transcript Below:

 

Mason:

Good morning or good afternoon again, Dr. Jenny.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Thank you, Mason. Great to be here again.

Mason:

Yeah, what a pleasure. Two weeks in a row, this is just our usual spot. Maybe we should just make it Thursday morning 7:30 for me and we just always chat.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Yeah, that'd be awesome.

Mason:

How is it? Where are you at the moment? Same place?

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Seattle, yep. Seattle, Washington. Yeah, West Coast US.

Mason:

How's the fall day in Seattle going?

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Well we've had a lot of wildfires around and actually in British Columbia, not too far from here. So just dealing with some smoke but otherwise nice temperatures today, yeah.

Mason:

Nice one. Well, thanks for coming on again. It's such a huge topic and as is the way with this podcast, it was really nice to have the liberty to jump into some of those little areas around yes, talking about sexuality and DMT and what's innate within us as well as psychedelics. It's nice talking about those things, but I always really love being able to talk about the community that surrounds all these things. So I really appreciate you going there and just indulging the podcast and sharing everything just around that. I kind of got us a little bit off track but I'd say on track last week, thanks for doing that. We were talking about that incredible accidental finding of this research through complete... It was just completely serendipitous and that was cool. Anyone who hasn't heard just go back and listen to that last podcast with Dr. Jenny and locating that dissertation that was believed to be lost and opening up that can of worms for your work and really just looking at yes, DMT is a neurotransmitter. But then just the implications that has one for like...

 

I don't know, I'm putting my words out there. But yes empowerment but that sovereignty, that research that leads us to really understanding our own innate capacity and then sexuality. I'm really keen to really jump into your thesis and everything that's emerging from that around how, especially the female body as using your words is hardwired to activate our endogenous psychedelic system during sex and let's give it the time it deserves.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Awesome. Yes, thank you. Do you have any particular place you'd like to start in terms of that big topic?

Mason:

Yeah. Because science is often criticised for being... I guess we talked a lot, I'm not going to go there today but we did talk a lot about the institution of science. But I just want to start with that moment for you where that research really bridged over to real human impact and why just that feeling that you got when you saw just how much this was going to be able to do for the individuals, especially for females and their bodies 'cause science can be so cold. But I'd say this science is a great example of that which leads to an embodied experience as long as it's applied correctly or taken beyond just the theory. So I'm just really interested in that crossover as a doctor, as a scientist. What was that time and that experience like for you and making that connection? Why did it lead straight to female bodies and sexuality?

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Are you talking about the DMT or are you talking about the... So you're talking about female sexuality more so right now?

Mason:

Yeah. Well, I was assuming there was a connection of that understanding DMT as a neurotransmitter and that lost research really inevitably led you to further into studying the sexuality and the female body.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Oh, sure. Okay. It actually started off with my own embodied experience, which I talked a little bit about last time and then to be able to understand. So not just myself, but there's many other women that have had these experiences of entering what we could almost call a near death experience through sexuality, through intercourse primarily. To start to understand okay, how is that possible? What is inside of us that could actually make that possible? That's where the study of DMT. Now granted the way that DMT research needs to be conducted with actual probes to the brain, it's very difficult ethically to do this kind of research on humans. But when we start to piece together what we do know about endogenous DMT and what type of experiences it creates when people are given the actual drug. It overlaps so much 5-MeO and DMT itself with in particular the activation of a woman's cervical system and it's beyond just, did I have a cervical orgasm or not? Because one of the things that we kind of mentioned last time was that research on women who've had part of their cervix removed.

 

In some women it actually caused a lack of sexual arousal, a lack of desire and a lack of sexual pleasure. So what that is starting to indicate there is that the cervix, which you can know something intuitively and then when you get some validation in terms of science it starts to connect the dots. So what that tells us, which is not a surprise to me working with women and also my own experience. It's no surprise to me that it's not just about a cervical orgasm. The cervix itself is fundamental to a woman's ecstatic potential, the shift in consciousness that can happen through sex. So often women have experienced the negative side of sex like an unwanted experience, a experience that was traumatic. It's so important for us to learn what is the potential of, for instance healing. These experiences can be very healing and not only that they also let us what you said, feel what is actually the power inside of us.

 

It just brings to mind, there was a study that was done in 2020 which was a placebo study on psychedelics and so all of the participants were given a sugar pill. They were not given any psychoactive medicine, but the study was designed in such a brilliant way. They had security cards at the lab to make it look like the people were given a controlled substance. They had actors there to say, "Oh, my God. I just finished the study, that was wild." Walking around the hallways to kind of psych the subjects up for what they were going to go through. But not one of those people got any psychoactive drug. But because the study was so well-designed with so much expectation going in, two thirds of the people thought that they had a psychedelic. A lot of those people had never had a psychedelic in their life, but they were reporting the exact kind of things you would get if you took psilocybin. Like the exact type of experiences, which tells us that expectation. What we believe about what type of experience we're going to have is so profound.

 

Our mind really is such a creator of our experience, and so most women have not been told you can have a psychedelic experience during sex completely sober. So there is something to be said for that level of I don't have any expectation, it's a nice connecting experience, maybe sex is a stress relieving experience but it's certainly not a mystical experience. I know I never had any expectation but when I started to look into some of the ancient cultures where that was the expectation. It was for me, the expectation that helped shift this for me. Right? So our bodies are designed for this, but what blocks it? I would say a large part of what blocks it is, you've heard this saying that your brain is the largest sex organ in your body. True. Your beliefs about what is going to happen, what is possible, plays a huge role and that placebo study really speaks to that.

Mason:

It's kind of nice because we did discuss, you'd been looking at the wisdom traditions and of course we know that this is the expectation. But when you look at the majority of society being such like a hive mind, naturally that remains mystical and something the mainstream can kind of look at in a condescending way because it's not understood. But naturally we do, no doubt that's what we desire and we don't want it to... I think that's maybe where it ties in why we were talking about so much of the community and those front-runners and even to myself. I need to talk about the cultivation of health and the treasures through Taoism and Jing Qi and Shen. It seems really mystical and it's based on classical Chinese texts and it seems inaccessible for a lot of people and I really understand that. Thankfully we've been able to go into adaptogen science and for many people that are living within their head and for them rightfully so that's the way they operate and especially in a modern society.

 

But nonetheless, the demystification and the approachability of this that's where this kind of work and this kind of science is actually making it accessible which is just such a nice grounding time that the community is in. That's why I just really wanted to make sure that we had the time to really flesh that out and go a little bit deeper and the other thing I was just thinking then in terms of the power of the mind. The placebo tests are so weird in just how it's just to put it crassly, complete trickery, we know the theory of where we want you to get. In a nice way it's kind of like manipulating where we know people have the potential to go in order for them to see something. In order for us to be like, "Okay. See everybody, there's a real logical way in order to arrive at this point." So what do you see as being the major outcomes? I want to jump ahead of why would this be for someone who's just the lay person who isn't really interested in Tantra or Taoist sexuality.

 

Maybe heard about it that's completely mystical, doesn't use psychedelics. But what does this give them access to? Because it is this magical landscape that we have access to. But what do you see as those more broader things that are happening in women once they realise okay, this is accessible to me. They're not into all the other mystical stuff, they don't need to read a classic text. What do you find are the major outcomes that are coming for these women's lives and everyone's lives as well as their partners?

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Right. So that's a great question and I would say a sense of wholeness, a sense of autonomy, sovereignty, a sense of having this intuition that there's something more there but then you actually experience it. So there's this idea that was put forth in a book called Stealing Fire by Jamie Wheal, Steven Kotler. They talked about the altered states economy and they mentioned all of the things that humans do to alter their state of mind. Everything from alcohol to caffeine, to you name it and they hypothesise that innate to humanity is this need to not necessarily escape the life that we're living in. But to connect to a meaning, a sense of being that's beyond just this life and when we're socialising or just going out and having fun and doing something to alter our state we just see that as normal. But if you kind of look at it through the lens of, we're kind of I would say the idea of being programmed to want to shift our state. Whether we do meditation or tai chi or sex or whatever, right?

 

But understanding, and I mean some of the choices whether it be alcohol or whatever can be destructive to our body and some of them can be very affirming. Right? But to kind of look at that at a level of curiosity, what is that hunger within humanity? It's a hunger that has to do with why the psychedelic renaissance is happening. It's that hunger to know that we're interconnected. That there's a sense of unity, that there's a sense of possibility of accessing a love that's beyond even just human love that feels like one day someone loves you the next day they're pissed off at you. But accessing a state that is beyond that, that we can... Just like the whole idea of going to a meditation class. That at the end of the day, it's how does it impact your life day to day? Can you go through the ups and downs of your life when something good happens? When something, "Bad happens?" And can you have an inner stability, right? Like during the pandemic, some people's lives were completely like... They just lost themselves, right?

 

Because the rug being pulled out from under you, that level of uncertainty. I mean to a certain extent it's difficult for everyone. But depending on where your own spiritual practise is, where your own inner peace is external events can affect you to a different degree. Right? So seeing our sexuality as an aspect of that spiritual connecting to that sense of inner knowing, that sense of being able to have an experience that's independent of what the world is telling you, you should have. Right? So to have an inner balance when things are going, "Well." It's not like you're dependent on that to happen in order to feel good. If things in your life are going in a different direction, "Bad." You're not completely crushed, right? So that being the ultimate... When I look at some of the different spiritual paths out there, being able to have that your own... It's even beyond emotional self-regulation. It's being able to tap into your own source, right? To be able to tap into something beyond just your human self that is the ego that is just all over the place sometimes. Right?

 

What accessing this state through sexuality, it's a very different path than sitting in a place of stillness and doing sitting meditation. I mean that's its own valid path but through pleasure, through lovemaking, it becomes a path of reclaiming and re-remembering that divinity. So we can access that with our partner and feel renewed, feel rejuvenated but then go back into our life and something, "Bad," happens at work and we forget and we feel flustered and we feel thrown off, and then we come back to our spiritual practise which is lovemaking and we re-remember who we are. We are not thrown around by all of these things, we have a solidness to us that is beyond all of the different things that are happening in the world and that's what I can say for myself. There's a whole list of things that you can say if someone has post-traumatic stress disorder and I would've filled out most of those criteria in my early 20s and those symptoms are not impacting my life now.

 

Not because I went through many of the traditional routes that people go through like therapy, which is very valid and I think that's wonderful if that's where you derive your strength from. But for me, my trauma and a lot of times sexual trauma it's not just okay if it affected the person's psyche. It can affect the person's spirit, right? So it's reclaiming that spiritual connection with yourself. It was finding my spiritual connection within myself that let me see my identity and not as this broken person that's been through all these trials and tribulations. But as this whole person and that divine essence within me can never be traumatised, can never be harmed. It is a place of perfect oneness that I can connect to and quite the opposite of what I thought growing up in it, as we talked about last time a Christian home. I never thought you could connect through this through sexuality and then I found out that yes actually you can, sexuality can be a path of reconnection.

Mason:

I love it. Yeah. That's kind of like I think the major crossover in terms of our work that I think often when we talk about sexuality it loses. Whether it's in science or in a wisdom tradition like what the north star is where you're going and that personal sovereignty and that connection that leads to that resilience. We talked a lot about the pandemic last time and from our perspective when people had connection to their innate capacity, they weren't able to have their mind altered by media. They were able to think with real clarity and that's what we're talking about, the exact same thing here. It's going into that world that you're in and that emerging world where spirit and science are really starting to... They have been for decades. Or you could say what the Taoist and the yogi's did was science. So it's always been connected, it was just they had a pretty big rupture in the Middle Ages. This is something that a majority of institutions don't want, they don't want people being able to put it really... I'm going to really put it down to a simple way of saying it.

 

Think for themselves fully, think laterally, not just listen to politicians and them just accept the little one-liners that they say and be able to critically analyse what's going on, how that works for them. Ask really reasonable counter questions, form their own sovereign path, weave towards their own unique destiny and respect other people's unique destiny. In the conspiracy world where institutions have become so fossilised, that scene is like not maybe directly but when you experience people like that it's often feared. You just look at modern media. That's something that's feared and so it's something that's associated with the counterculture, the conspiracy kind of drive. So how have you experienced bringing these kinds of things to that kind of institution? Have you experienced that like I'm working in an invisible space that a lot of scientists they actually don't understand that theory. Or are they asking for, "What do you mean by connection to self and can you quantify what that is?"

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Yeah, that's great. Thank you for going there, I think that's really important because that really is what's... We're living at such an interesting time on the planet. Oh, my God. So there's a lot there and just to say that these Eastern practises such as Daoism and so forth, Chinese medicine. They talk about Chi, they talk about subtle... Well, in the west we would call it subtle energy and just to say this and then I'll answer your other question. But there's definitely a science that has been hidden from mainstream. A science of subtle energy, and there's a physicist Claude Swanson who was educated at MIT and Princeton and he didn't learn about the role of consciousness. He didn't learn about that the human mind can affect the world, it was just like we have no... Our mind, our consciousness. There's nothing about subtle energy, we don't have that ability. Then he went to do some work with the Central Intelligence Agency and he was working on some classified work and he found out there's a whole other level of physics that governments throughout the world are working on and the front-runner of this was Russia.

 

They've been working on something called torsion physics, which is a deeper level of reality deeper than quantum physics and that can be translated... Claude Swanson left the classified world and he was so fascinated that he never learned this at these Ivy League schools that he went to. He made his life's work to write books for the general public on what we could say is life force energy and although this physicist didn't talk about sex per se. He did talk about this being Qi, this being the principles behind how acupuncture works for instance and this science it's called torsion physics and it has to do with the spin rate of the electrons and really comes down to how our bodies operate. Yes, we are run by biochemicals. But they're beyond at a deeper level of the biochemistry in our body our DNA is emitting electromagnetic energy and this torsion and when... What do you call it? Qigong healers and so forth. When they are able to heal at a distance, distance healing the electromagnetic energy cannot travel that far over space but torsion can and so it becomes...

 

What we start to see is that it is the basis of consciousness and that information has been hidden from the general public. But you could understand this, that an aspect of this is sexual energy. Sexual energy is torsion. Now, there's a man named Wilhelm Reich who talked about orgone energy and he came from Austria to the United States. He was curing cancer with this and it was a big deal and he wrote some books in... I can't remember, the 1950s I believe. Anyway the Federal Drug Administration in the United States burned his books, put him in jail. He died in jail here, and the reason why they did that they said, "You are talking about an energy that does not exist." It does not exist, that was their claim against him. Now we have the science, albeit it's not mainstream to show this. So the fact that this has been suppressed, what it's doing is it's creating problems. Because one of the things, when you understand this energy, you understand that the world is more than one dimension.

 

So when people are having a DMT experience and they say, "Oh, my God. It feels like I'm going to a place that's more real than here." Guess what? What this physics tells us is that where this energy is in your... How much of this energy. When you build up this energy in your body, and you can do it through sex, you can do it through breathing practise, you can do it through all sorts of different ancient practises. But when you build up this energy in your body, it's activating your pineal gland and that pineal gland has piezoelectric properties in it and it's actually connecting with the external energy field that's around you that is also a part of this torsion. You are able to access levels of consciousness that was only reserved for mystics and that we would think in the past. So this is our ability to go beyond the reality that we're told is the only one that exists. But nobody tells us that we are not just physical, that we're quantum.

 

Then we're not able to access this, right? The awareness of what we are actually helps facilitate the experience of it. But what is interesting is that as of late, who has really got into this whole discussion of psychedelics is artificial intelligence folks. There are people at Google right now that are funding consciousness research, funding DMT research. The unfortunate aspect of it is, as far as I can tell maybe this is scepticism on my part. But it's not necessarily to educate the general public that you are a quantum being and you have powers of perception through DMT and your pineal gland. It's not necessarily to do that, it's to map the human body and the capacity of the human body and brain and then to transfer that into technology so we can be reliant on technology. Now I'm seeing more and more articles that are coming out that are saying, "Hey, beware of psychedelics. Somebody took psilocybin and they jumped off a bridge." Giving these kind of scare stories, and then not that there aren't legitimate situations that people get into problems.

 

But I'm seeing more and more of those stories and then at the end of the article it will say, "A safer route is an AI induced hallucination."

Mason:

Can I-

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Yeah.

Mason:

There's so much to unpack there, I'm going to go to the last place that I put a little pin down to ask and then just first of all. Just yeah, acknowledging that whole like someone took a psychedelic and jumped off a roof or something. That's what we always got told, someone took LSD and they thought they were a bird and they jumped off a school building or something like that. That was always what our Catholic educators would tell us growing up and it's a funny one how we always create the entirety within modern science. The entirety of how we approach something, whether it's sex, whether it's childbirth, whether it's psychedelics. We'll take the most extreme example of something going wrong and then base the entirety of our approach for the majority of the population, putting a complete glass ceiling on the capacity that people have to experience. Yeah. Again, sex, psychedelics, birth. We just projected that because we're so fearful of our own sovereignty, and yes sometimes things do go wrong. But we're also generally able to study it and not shy away from it, go into the shadow. What happened there?

 

What were the conditions? There were other medications or whatever it is. But yeah, I just want to kind of point that out to everybody because it's always a big thing that someone's listening to when they listen to this. Yeah, well sometimes that does happen and it does. But the cultivation, I use the word cultivation. This energy I'm really fascinated. Quite often people can mistake western anatomy, modern medicine, science or naturopathic based science and they try and layer it over classical Chinese medicine and Qi and Qi cultivation and cultivating energy. A lot of the people I study with are just like, "You really have to be mindful that, that's like saying that Mandarin and English can be the same language and they just can't because they have different roots." But there is always a crossover, and so many people would've heard me say this that you don't cross them over. Don't think that you can layer them on top of each other. But now we're getting into a particular type of science that is speaking the language of Qi and cultivation of energy or has the capacity to kind of quantify it.

 

So it's where you can kind of loosen up a little bit. We've had people like Dr. Daniel Keown on the podcast, he's got the books The Spark in the Machine and The Uncharted Body and he's very aware of don't just think that you can just explain something from an ancient wisdom text it can be explained in modern, some energetic or by modern times. But we're starting to get crossovers, especially he's like the five organs, the Spleen, Lungs, Kidney, Liver, Heart. We're actually finding these places that are like the battery packs that when you do cultivate Qi, when you do Qigong and the work that you are talking about intentional engagement with your sexuality you see... I might be simplifying it in terms of saying electromagnetic but more kinetic energy. We're getting to the point where we can start measuring it increasing within these aspects of those organs that can hold and perhaps that's what the very kinetic and visceral experience was of the ancients when they did these things.

 

We could feel something building up here and they eventually developed The Five Elements or the five organ systems, so on and so forth. So I just really want to go back to that when you were talking about the kinetic energy and I can't remember your words exactly. But in the sense like building it, cultivating it, getting more of it. I'd love to just hover around that for a second around where that science is. How do we build it? Where does it get held? Can you see that there's conditions that you are now being able to measure where yes, people are getting a lot of it through a meditation but for some reason it's just falling out? It's like they've got a hole in the boat and it's seeping and this is what we do in order to make sure that we plug that hole so it can be built up.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Totally, yeah. So have you ever heard of Kirlian photography?

Mason:

Because I was an ex raw foodest, that's what we used as our evidence that raw food is far superior. Because we used Kirlian photography to photograph a raw cacao bean versus a cooked cacao bean and you could see how the Kirlian energy of... Yeah. That was a very cherry-picking, a little bit of science to say see how alive this piece of spinach is? When you cook it you can see the Kirlian energy is dead and we'd use that to justify. But yeah, very familiar.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

I think that's brilliant. Again, a lot of this research comes out of Russia and we didn't know about this until Glasnost and Perestroika. When there was a loosening up of communication between that country and the West and a lot of the scientists their research became available over here and now it's clamped down again and there's actually kind of a disinformation campaign going on. If you look this up on Wikipedia, you're going to hear that it's not accurate. But I've written some on Substack, I've written some of the... I really got really intrigued about this. Because it goes back to Einstein, it goes back to this is stuff that Einstein was trying to work out and now some of these Russians have actually worked out the mathematics to prove this is how the universe works. It has to do with dark matter, dark energy, it has to do with the physical vacuum and it has to do with us too. Right? So this stuff is real. But anyway, back to Kirlian photography.

 

In Russia, one of the scientists have actually developed a software programme that takes the Kirlian photograph and they make a 3D image of your body to show what your biofield looks like. So what we might call an aura with the idea that every human is emitting energy and it's used in some countries, and not of course in the West. But because it would completely upend our pharmaceutical model, right? It challenges that we're only biochemicals that run biochemicals. It gives us a sense that if we really want to heal we go to the level of energy. But you can use this as a diagnostic techniques, and I do have research papers to show how this works. It's called gas discharge visualisation and they can for instance, do this imaging of a body and it's going to tell information about the level of functioning of your immune system, also of your psychological wellbeing. Then they can do an intervention, some kind of healing technique, whatever that is and then they'll do another reading with the software programme and then that will show and invariably it does.

 

You can actually go look up gas discharge visualisation on Google images and you can see before and after of people's bodies and interestingly enough along this line that we are energy. What you start to realise is your thoughts, your emotions are not just things that we think just have nothing that just involve us. Right? When you realise that we're energy, you realise that yes you can't see it with your eyeballs. But energy is leaving you and with gastro discharge visualisation you can for instance focus on a thought of love or a thought of anger, and you can have another person in the room and you can see that energy leaving your body to the other person through this technology. So when we think about sex for instance, we start to realise that it's not just body parts being connected together. We are energy systems and if you're holding for instance resentment towards your partner or on the other hand really open-hearted feelings of love and acceptance and worship and kindness and goodness.

 

This is going to create a different vibrational field between the two of you and it's going to... The way that sex really gets both partners into this state of mystical oneness in terms of what it would really mean in terms of accessing the psychedelics within our system. You're getting into a state of synchronisation and the newer research coming out about psychedelics, it's showing that it really comes down to a state of high synchronisation and coherence within the human body. Well, that maps onto something that actually we can control to a certain extent and one of the key things here is the emotions that we bring to sexual intimacy. So HeartMath has done a lot of research on this, unfortunately not in the realm of sexuality. But they've done a lot of research in terms of what they call social coherence, how you are feeling, whether you are in a survival emotion or in an elevated emotion. You could also conversely say negative or positive emotion.

 

But where you are, if you're in a feeling of frustration or fear towards your partner or you're in a feeling of compassion or gratitude. This is going to change the energy, they looked at particularly the heart and the energetic feel the heart is giving off and it's going to fortify, strengthen the field around your body. If you go on Google images for instance, and you look at HeartMath you can see what fear does to your field. This is HeartMath research. Fear will shrink your field around your body, the biofield and love will expand the field. So people say, "Okay, well how can I have this amazing kind of sex, this psychedelic sex?" Well, paying attention to things that we normally don't think really matter. I mean I tell you one thing in my past I didn't even think that, that was important in my past. How many of us have had sex where our minds were a million miles away or maybe even we weren't really that happy with our partner at the time. But we just had sex anyway and yes, you might have pleasure, yes you might even orgasm.

 

But you're in a state of de-coherence then, right? When your mind and body are not connecting in that way and when you're not connecting in a elevated emotion way with your partner you're disconnecting. Yes, you're connecting physically but you're not connecting on the subtle energy level. You need to be in a state of heart coherence with your partner in order for this energy field to be strengthened between the two of you and then when that is strengthened between two of you. That's when we can get into this exponential state for both of you that brings you to an altered state.

Mason:

I love it. I love HeartMath and it's something like getting into this kind of... Again, this is the science of self-perception and I first through... I don't know if you've heard of Steven Harrod Buhner, he is a herbalist and a poet who passed away a few months ago. He's got some beautiful books like The Secret Teachings of Plants, The Lost Language of Plants and talks about how working with plants we can cultivate this perception of our surroundings. Exactly what HeartMath are doing in terms of showing that the heart is a perceptive organ and there's a science to actually not just taking information and taking it to your head. But running it through the heart and the heart being able to decipher that and read that information not in English or not in any language and then sending it up to the brain to get our exact finger on the pulse. Because it's so nice just bringing light to if there is fear, and here we can show fear or resentment or when there is love. Are we starting to see through measuring this?

 

Because this is where then I find a lot of people going, "Okay, that sounds great. I'm going to make my new mantra that I don't fear that I in fact just love." And then that can lead to the bypassing of core fears. Which the reason I like the science here is because it's something that can show you like yeah, you're putting on a front or you're doing good work and there is more lovingness. But you can't just plough over a fear or you can't just plough over a resentfulness and so then that's when you look at either a real progressive modern psychology model or look ancient Taoism. They're going to say if this is the emotion that's emerging through this organ system, then here's a roadmap and here's the work that you're going to need to do. It's going to maybe take years in order to go through that next initiation where you have a real clear embodiment of from the Kidneys that a willingness to love or from the Heart love or whatever it is.

 

Are you starting to see that side of things where there's more of a broader map? So it goes beyond just like, let's be more loving or let's talk it out, if you're resentful talk first and then arrive at love. But more of a map of you can see the quality of your cultivation of this energy is pretty good that you could go so much further and here's how we can use other sciences or systems in order to help you map the direction that you're going in?

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Yeah. I think that's a really good important point because the last thing you want to do is just kind of try to put love on top if there's real fear there. I'll talk about the female body right now because there's this unique vagus nerve connection with her sexual organs, which means that for instance if she's in a sexual situation and she wants to like, "Okay, I'm just going to love, I'm not going to feel fear." Well, it doesn't work like that because the way that your body responds it will respond in a fear shut down state if she doesn't feel safe. Right? And the thing is, your body will detect the feeling of safety before you can even analyse it and this has to do with polyvagal theory. Steven Porges, he did a lot of work on the vagus nerve and how we are adapted as humans to feel connected through closeness, through physical closeness, through emotional closeness with our partner and our nervous system will detect that through microscopic facial expressions that are not even perceptive that we would normally perceive logically.

 

But we're perceiving them at a deeper level, and then the tone of voice. Not necessarily what the person says but the tone of voice. So we're receiving that and in a sexual situation, a woman's body is so finely tuned to pick up these things that evoke whether the person has good intentions towards her or manipulative intentions or whatever. So her body will shut down in a state of freeze, her autonomic nervous system will and even if she's with another partner and okay, so that happened and now she's chosen another partner and this guy has good intentions, he only wants the best for her. If she hasn't worked through that from the last partner that her body shut down with it's not like you can just flip a switch and say, "Hey, this guy means good to me. I am just going to feel open-hearted towards him." Well you have to get your nervous system on board with you, right? Because your nervous system doesn't know the...

 

Because the vagus nerve is 80% afferent, so 80% of the communication between the brain and the body comes from the body to the brain and only 20% comes from the brain to the body. So in this instance, your brain is not... It's not necessarily mind over matter is what I'm trying to say. You can't like okay body get with it, we're going to love now. No, this is where somatic body work comes in and all of that. But the only thing I would differ with that, and this is speaking from personal experience, speaking from working with people. I don't believe necessarily it has to take years. I mean it can for some people, but it doesn't necessarily have to take years. One of the things to realise as well in this discussion is if there is a fear response, this can happen a lot with women. They're with a wonderful partner, they're with a safe partner, the partner just only wants the best for them. But they feel fear, like there's something going on that they feel shut down or frozen or something like that.

 

They're not really accessing their full sexual potential in that moment and the question is this happening right now in 2023 in this time in space? Or is this a younger version of myself that's showing up now? So to realise that, and this is not something that your partner can rescue you from or he can do anything necessarily. I mean to a certain extent they can, but this is where just reconnecting with yourself through self-compassion, through mindfulness. I do teach that it is helpful to have some kind of... I work with women who choose a goddess. Right? So whatever tradition they come from, some type of divine feminine guidance to have that relationship there first. So there's something called secure attachment in psychology and a lot of times we're told if you didn't grow up with a securely attached situation in your childhood you're going to always feel anxious or avoidant for the rest of your life. Well, that kind of messes things up if you're going to follow that philosophy for a lot of people including myself.

 

But it also makes you kind of unstable ground for the rest of your life because what if your partner is a wonderful person, but they're having a bad day and they don't attend to you and they don't attend to your needs? That puts a lot of pressure on your partner. So I don't agree with that psychological theory, how they tell you to work with that. I believe that we are spiritual, if we really see ourselves as energy we are spiritual beings and cultivating a spiritual connection with a divine presence can bring that secure attachment to ourselves and having that connection. Having that sense of security and peace in our own private meditation time and our own, when those fears come up and taking yourself away from your partner and having time on your own to really be present, love yourself through it. But also know that there is a part of you, this divine essence that we've talked about a little bit today that has never been harmed and that is your true identity.

 

The freedom that people get when they do especially DMT, some psychedelics is they get beyond the story of who they are and they see themselves as this pure essence and we can do psychedelics and get to that point. But we can also meditate on that being the truth and I've done psychedelics, but I found that inner spiritual connection before I got psychedelics. Actually I find that, that actually worked really well for me because I realised that core self was there all the time, and I could source that being my truth rather than trying to always repair a broken part of me. Right? But a part that the partner can really do is the fear, as I said it has to do with the nervous system as well especially when we're talking about female sexuality and being able to receive touch is so healing especially nonsexual touch and this goes back to the HeartMath training. They looked at why is for instance a massage and different body therapy practises healing for people, and you're getting the electromagnetic energy of the person who's giving the touch and especially if they're in a positive state of mind.

 

If they're in a fearful or angry state of mind, then you're getting that as well. But if they're in a loving, centred state of mind and they're touching your body and when we're talking about rehabilitating a woman's sexual from that fear state back to a state of balance in her nervous system. Being able to receive touch, that the expectation is off the table that this is going to end up in sex. So the pressure is off the table, but you're receiving sensual full body connection. Like light feathery touch actually activates this biofield more than if it was a deep Swedish massage or something, that type of touch. But being able to... And to tell you the truth, if you have had an unwanted experience that makes you feel fearful. If you've had that in the past you will feel so uncomfortable receiving light touch, you will feel like your skin is crawling, you will feel like you want to get out of there. You just won't feel comfortable with it and that is just the case, because you're not used to being present in your body in that kind of way.

 

So it becomes being gentle with yourself and maybe not doing it for too long, it's short periods of time. Being able to receive that type of touch where you don't feel like, okay, now I have to return this to the other person or I have to make them feel good sexually because they've done this for me. But just being able to receive that, be in your body and that's one of the biggest things to be able to experience any of these amazing experiences we can have through sexuality is being present in your body whether you've had an unwanted experience or not. The fact that we live in a culture that is so external in terms of notifications on our phone and technology and all of that. Our attention is directed outwards a lot and it takes an intentional practise to say okay, now we're turning off the phone and we are actually dropping into our body. It's not like you can just say okay, now we're going to do that and two minutes later I'm really present in my body.

 

This is why foreplay is so important. It takes something to actually make that transition out of the mental state that a lot of us live in during the day to do our job. To take care of other people or whatever and to really transition into our body, which is important for both men and women.

Mason:

The reason this science or the awareness, the practise, the field is so interesting. Because I think so often once people get into the clinical side of the study, there's no bridge for when it's like now you've gone so far in terms of healing or going through needing to go to use a protocol. Use these really useful rules that if you feel this, it's important to go through this or make sure that during this stage while this trauma's coming about. These practises of having light touch and without any expectation, they are so healing and then people listening would know that there's somewhat of a crossover for when you're working with symptomology in your body. Where you can only go so far going and seeing acupuncturists and seeing doctors and naturopaths, but what's not ever really defined is now we're kind of out... We can still keep the tools and tools are really useful, but do we want to be using tools in 20 years?

 

Or do we want to have gone into a practise within our own lives and begin to embody the capacity once it's not so overtly traumatic? Or we've got somewhat of the capacity to stay internal when our emotions come up and navigate the space and go is something really going on? As you kind of said, it's like am I in my past or am I in the present right now? But that's a huge expectation, especially if it's really visceral. But then you get to the point where it's like, now where do we bridge? No more tools, now we're in the practise of it, now this is the norm, this can be the norm for you in life and yes you get to stop chasing with psychedelics. You get to stop chasing with researching the data, and you get to just go into a cultivation of your life and your relationship with your partner and sex and know that stuff is going to keep on coming up forever and that's the beautiful thing when you get to stop chasing psychedelic experiences and cathartic experiences.

 

And you create this temple within your bedroom where things are going to come up and I feel like sometimes I either think people either get addicted to just putting heaps of emphasis on the trauma that comes up. Or they get frustrated that things still come up and everything isn't just perfect all the time, which isn't the point also. Because in 20 years time, 30 years time when we are in a really loving relationship with someone or even if it's just a loving relationship with ourselves especially in relation to sex and what that's going to bring up. How do you navigate that? Maybe that's not the focus and that's another field. But that bridging once you're there now here's the next north star, you've talked about our connecting to our own to something more than this life. Is there anything within that field that where they're like, and what is next? Once these people leave the field, how would we measure in 50 years time whether they've really embodied this? What would we see in terms of how their life turned out, who they are as people? Are they more integrated?

 

Are they more uniquely refined, so on and so forth.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, you said a lot there.

Mason:

I did, sorry.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

It's really important. No, it's very important. Great reflect. Yeah, thank you. This is the bottom line, what could be more important than saying that? That's the litmus test. After doing all these things is your life actually... I wish more of us thought about that, especially with some sexual practises and stuff. Like okay, yeah, fine, I have no judgement but is your life actually better as a result of that? So yeah, that's exactly and this is why I'm passionate about female sexuality and sexuality in general. Because the potential of us embodying our own spiritual connection and through relationship makes life have a quality that otherwise it wouldn't have. Right? So it gives us a sense of doing life together. But it also gives us a sense that when we can really... And I know this sounds trite and everything. But when we can really see that divinity within our partner, not just in the moment of sex. But just throughout the day and really acknowledge okay, they're not perfect, I'm not perfect.

 

Things are showing up between the two of us, but be able to have the eyes to see that deeper part of them as well and to go through life together on that journey. What do people remember on their deathbed? They don't remember their accomplishments, they don't remember any of that. They remember their relationship and what could be more wonderful for us than to have that close relationship and there's something that happens when you... Listen, you can have sex and fuck right? You can just fuck and do that with a lot of people and have a great time. But then you can really, really connect with a person which is scary because if you really commit and get to know someone and really go to these places together. Well, what if you really have really experienced something so sensational with your partner and we never know if they're going to stay or leave. I mean, they could leave for another partner or they could get hit by a bus. We never know, really putting your heart into something full on there's a level of vulnerability into that because they might go.

 

But this is why you also have your own personal divine connection because you don't source everything from your partner. You source it directly, but the connection with your partner that you have brings a whole new quality to life and when you have this type of sex. Where you are entering these sublime states of consciousness through sex that's available to you through a deeper emotional connection during lovemaking, then when we're talking about this you are actually bonded at a deeper level. I would even venture to say that there's a quantum entanglement that's happening with your energy and this shows up in some of the mystical texts I have read that talk about a bond that is eternal. This also has to do with people talk about energy practises where you can feel the sexual energy of your partner, and they may be on the other side of the earth temporarily like they're travelling or something.

 

You're so connected with them and this is not a codependent thing, it's why it's not for everyone. Because unless you've kind of worked out some of your own stuff and you have your own personal sense of identity, and knowing who you are entering that closed connection could be not helpful. Because you really have to have your own sense of who you are before you're really that connected. But in terms of the whole idea of, "Oh God, I'm frustrated, things are still coming up." Well, first of all I want to acknowledge that we are in kind of a culture of trauma. Trauma is everywhere talked about in the media, it almost feels like everything is a trauma today and granted it is not to cover up that real stuff goes on and people are affected constantly by all sorts of terrible things. But not everything is a trauma, and people are getting on TikTok and self diagnosing them. I know in Seattle School Board here in Seattle, they have sued TikTok.

 

Because they can't hire enough psychologists and mental health workers to meet the burgeoning need of young people in the high schools today who are coming in saying, I have bipolar, I have this and that and they've self diagnosed from TikTok. Right?

Mason:

Yeah.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

So do they really have these things going on? Probably not. If they hadn't been on TikTok, they probably would not need it and so the Seattle School Board actually sued TikTok because it's putting financial strain on them. Because TikTok is in their estimation creating a problem that wasn't there before. So to kind of acknowledge that we are in this kind of culture that everything is a trauma, but then in terms of real things and real difficulties that show up in your life you could say that a relationship is the ultimate spiritual journey. Right? Because even though in our culture, almost everybody that is a leader of either a mystical tradition or a religion they're single. Right? Buddha, I believe was married before he left his wife and went on his spiritual quest. Jesus is told to be celibate, but I believe that there's enough information that he wasn't. But we see these different people and we see them as, okay and it's the same thing Joseph Campbell's, The Hero's Journey that we see played out in movies all the time.

 

That to go on your spiritual quest, it's like a solo mission and we don't have the template enough in our minds and in movies and literature and spiritual traditions of a co-equal, and I'll speak here about man and woman. Co-equal man and woman, because they do bring a different energy. There is a different energy right down to we were talking about torsion physics a minute ago. The female body emits more left-hand torsion, the male body emits more right-hand torsion which has to do with you could almost say that's a science of Yin and Yang. Right? So there's levels of this and so the ultimate spiritual path being having a partner. Because if you are on your own never getting your behaviour reflected back by your partner, you can just get into maybe a narcissistic vibe or something. Right? Nothing's wrong with me I'm perfect, man. But then when you have a partner reflecting that back to you, you kind of maybe need to look at it. Right? So you could say it's walking the more advanced path of, you could even say quicker spiritual transformation.

 

Because being shown different things that you maybe would've not realised if you were on your own. You can go into your own reflection or do your own contemplation on that and release that and move on. Right? But the idea being that we're spiritual beings having a human experience, and if there was no little roadblock, no little stumbling block that showed up then you could say we wouldn't be in this dimension. We would be vibrating at such a high frequency and there is science that I'm not just saying that in terms of wisdom traditions. There is science to say we will be synchronised to the dimension that the energy in our body is vibrating at and we are still here in physical material form. So there are still things for us to work on and just seeing it as part of our journey without condemning ourselves or condemning our partner and that's one perspective for it. Yeah.

Mason:

I think it's such a valid perspective and I think it's something, again there's a nuance. We've talked about it on the podcast before with a mate called Velan and how when I was in my mid 20s. I had a teacher who I probably put just... Not keeping at arm's length and have an appropriate relationship where I was just like, I'm just going to take the information that you're sharing and I'm going to run that through my filter. More one of those teachers who are like, I'm going to let you in and take really deep advice from you about how I'm going to create my life. I was talking about this teacher years ago to my friend Velan and he was like, "You know what? I hear what you're saying and I think it's really interesting." But the fact he doesn't have a strong partner who's a dedicated partner which is fine, maybe he is the most enlightened person and doesn't need one.

 

But for me, that's my way of stacking the odds in my favour that if I'm going to let something in that's really going to impact the way I choose my life. I know that person is in a real relationship where there's a strong mirror and there's a strong connection and that's been kind of proven somewhat as much as we can get a bit of social proof. Therefore, they earn the right to share that information. Because they know that he's like there's not going to be real extreme narcissism or just falling into identities. Because they've got a partner that's going to be able to hold them accountable to that and I was like, it shook me so much and I think about that so much. So yeah, you bringing that up I think it's a wonderful distinction to start to bring this home on.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Absolutely, and there's something about the male, female connection to that is so... I can tell you that having men in my life and having a partnership with a man has been the most transformational, the most life-giving, the most positive influence and I've had a relationship with another woman before. But I tell you one thing, it was with the men in my life that have been the most healing for me. So I've had some of the most destructive experiences early on with men, but the most transformational experiences with men. There is something about the dynamic when an authentic man who isn't looking to take, who's just really happy with who they are to a certain extent as much as they can be. But is grounded in who they are and is just there to show up and be with you, having that presence in your life. There's nothing, I mean I've just found... And I wanted to say, I was going to say this earlier just as just something to throw in. Is they have done research to ask what is the most effective psychotherapy?

 

Because there's something like 400 different ways you could do therapy, everything from cognitive behavioural therapy to acceptance to commitment therapy. You name it, there's so many different modalities to do psychotherapy and when they did this kind of meta study of all of that. You know what it came down to in terms of outcomes for clients and which therapy really made the difference? One ingredient, and that was the relationship if the client felt like the therapist cared. It really didn't matter so much what modality they were using is if there was a positive emotional bond where the client or patient felt like the therapist cared for them, then they got positive outcomes then the person actually improved their psychological wellbeing. So for myself, I didn't personally go going through long periods of therapy. But I can understand why that works in a psychotherapy situation because having the emotional bonded connection with a partner. A stable partner who actually caress about your wellbeing and is not just looking to see what they can get from you or whatever.

 

Oh my gosh, there's nothing more healing for both parties than to have that, the emotional connection. We thrive on that.

Mason:

Absolutely, I love it. I really love how much consideration has gone into the work that you're offering, what it's rooted in. Just I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people asking about where to find more of your stuff and I know like drjennymartin.com, as in D-R and Jenny with a Y. drjennymartin.com, it's a great website and your offerings are awesome. I think that's kind of often the thing I checked out is that quite often if someone has something so good to talk about and they're like where do I learn more? And it's like maybe something's coming. I'm like, no, you've got practitioner trainings, psychedelic cervix course, Magdalene Sacred Sex, Psychedelic Cervix and Birth and Psychedelic Sex for Couples and a podcast and a bunch more. So thanks for just having lots of resources.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

I appreciate that. Yeah, it's important. People need to know what is inside of them, and so I'm passionate about teaching that. But thank you so much for these conversations, I've really enjoyed it Mason. Thank you so much.

Mason:

Me too. You've shared something quite fresh and new here, and is this just where you're at the moment? Is that where your attention is at with your work and what's really current is sharing these new insights, or are there other things on the way? If people want to follow along for your adventures, what's coming?

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Well I am passionate to share more about this, what we started talking about at the beginning of our first episode last week. I am passionate to bring people an awareness of this mystical, hidden tradition in Christianity because-

Mason:

Yeah, that was fascinating.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Yeah. Because here's the deal, intellectually we can have these conversations right? Like, "Hey, you got this stuff inside of you. This is what it's called and this is how it works." Great, right? But I do know that learning about something, and even when you for instance go through a psychotherapy like learning about why do I do this or whatever. Learning at an intellectual level doesn't necessarily equal change, right? What equals change is experiencing something and the more I look into this and the more I've had many sex therapists for instance take my practitioner training and I talk to them. Like, "What do you think is the biggest reason why your clients don't have a better experience sexually with their partners?" And primarily we're talking about women, and what it always comes down to is they don't feel like they deserve pleasure. Right? I've heard so many therapists say to me that they have people coming to them that come from a traditional religious background.

 

Now, most of them have left that far behind like okay, I've sworn off religion but that doesn't give them freedom. Right? Those old ideas somehow work on their subconscious and listen, I understand that because I didn't have full freedom to experience these experiences. Even though I had left the church, I still didn't feel like it was okay which is just bizarre to even think about. Right? But humans are weird beings, we're so complex. So it was giving for me to find this other more esoteric, somewhat hidden version of the Christian story that was very sexual to realise that and then I had to put science to it. Because I couldn't just be, okay, some guy said this, right? I had to put science to it and then my rationale was okay, if we believe there's a divine creator and they designed the freaking human body like this then it does make sense. This ancient wisdom is true, right? Why do we have a clitoris that the only job is pleasure? Scientists still can't figure out why females can orgasm, you do not need orgasm to reproduce, to get pregnant.

 

Women are getting pregnant all over the world every day without even ever, maybe never having an orgasm in their life but they're getting pregnant. So in terms of evolutionary biology, why in the heck do we have orgasm? It doesn't make sense, and not only that. Why do a lot of women even say their greatest orgasmic experiences, sexual pleasure experiences happen after they can no longer reproduce, happen post menopause. Right? Human women are among the only species in the animal kingdom that have a long life, like decades of life after they stop being able to reproduce. It's only killer whales of all things, killer whales and one other species that can actually live a while after they stop reproducing, most when menopause happens. Menopause doesn't happen throughout the animal kingdom, it happens only selectively. But then times that it does happen, they die pretty close after. With human women no way, right? And the same thing with those whales. But with men there is this evolutionary function, there's impregnation that can happen right up until death as a result of ejaculation.

 

Now, we know a orgasm and ejaculation don't have to show up together but there is a purpose. It makes sense, right? You can do this because you can propagate the species and that's what evolutionary biologists like to think about, everything is very cut and dry and rational. There's no rational reason that women orgasm and that's another reason why it didn't get covered in the scientific research as much as male orgasm and male pleasure. But when we start to piece this together and there's this altered state of consciousness, which you could say is an evolutionary drive. That's why we get addicted to alcohol, that's why different things, because we have this evolutionary drive that we haven't realised and sex was given to us. Not just for women to be with other women or to masturbate, but to have the most profound experience through intercourse which doesn't happen with a sex toy it happens with a man and that can lead to these states of consciousness that can be shared by both partners.

 

So it's almost like there's this divine design of sex for females, which is the antithesis of what we've been told in all religious traditions as it being possibility of merging with the divine through having sex with their partner. When you look at all of that science and how that works in the divine design of a woman's body, and you overlay that and some of this suppressed ancient wisdom it starts to make sense. It starts to make sense. So when you think about women not deserving it, it's set and setting what we talk about a lot in psychedelics. Right? It's the mindset that really activates the potential of the psychedelic more so than the drug itself and the same is true of sex. It's okay, what beliefs are we holding about this? And to really shift the narrative around some of the negative beliefs that we've had and especially I can speak to the Christian tradition, can unlock, can free people. So that is something that I'm working on and writing about.

Mason:

I love it so much. When that's mushrooming and there's more nuance and you're feeling it, I'd love for you to reach out and let me know so we can have another chinwag because this has been so fun.

Dr. Jenny Martin:

Wonderful, I'd love to do that. Yeah, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Mason:

Thank you so much. All right, see you next time everybody.

 

 

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