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Embark on an illuminating journey with Nicholas Giannasi in this episode, where Mason guides a profound and deeply insightful conversation that seamlessly weaves together ancient spiritual concepts with their tangible, practical applications in the fabric of everyday existence. This is not merely a surface-level discussion; it's an exploration that delves into the very heart of what it means to be human, to err, and to transcend.
From the nuanced and often misunderstood true meaning of forgivenessโrevealed not as a mere act of absolution, but as a dynamic interplay of understanding and compassionโto the profound yet accessible importance of humility in an increasingly self-promotional world, Nicholas shares wisdom that resonates deeply. The conversation gracefully flows through the inevitability of change, emphasizing how embracing impermanence can liberate us from suffering and foster a deeper appreciation for the present moment. Mason and Nicholas collectively peel back the layers, revealing how ancient wisdom, distilled through centuries of profound contemplation and practice, offers an indispensable compass to navigate the intricate and often turbulent waters of the modern world. They invite listeners to discover how these timeless truths can not only illuminate our individual paths but also foster greater harmony and meaning in our lives, making the sacred visible in even the most mundane of activities. This episode promises to be a transformative listen, encouraging a shift in perspective that allows for greater peace, understanding, and authentic engagement with life's rich tapestry.
Episode Highlights:
- 00:01:34 - Forgiveness and Compassion: Nicholas emphasizes that true forgiveness comes from understanding another's suffering (compassion), which is love with understanding. He suggests stopping the effort to forgive and instead looking into the other person's suffering, creating space for understanding.
- 00:03:23 - The Importance of Space: Meditation and creating "space" are crucial for spiritual practice and achieving genuine understanding and forgiveness.
- 00:05:00 - Non-Clinging to "I, Me, Mine": Drawing from Buddhist teachings, Nicholas highlights that suffering arises from clinging to the illusion of a separate "I, me, or mine." True wholeness and appreciation of interconnectedness come from dropping this self-identity.
- 00:32:00 - The Mundane is Sacred: Both speakers agree that everyday life and seemingly mundane tasks (like "chop wood, carry water") are part of spiritual practice and that true spiritual growth doesn't necessarily mean escaping worldly obligations.
- 00:18:12 - Preparing for Death: The conversation touches on impermanence and preparing for death by living a grateful and aware life, free from fear and attachment.
- 00:13:51 - The Role of a Sense of Humor: A sense of humor is presented as an important aspect of the spiritual journey, helping to navigate suffering and the absurdities of life without becoming cynical.
- 00:44:10 - Jing, Qi, and Shen: The concept of Jing, Qi, and Shen is discussed, with Nicholas emphasizing that healing the soul (Shen) first allows the mind and body (Qi and Jing) to follow. Connecting with a "higher Jing" or the Dao through practice is key.
- 00:50:04 - Avoiding Over-Complication: Nicholas stresses keeping spiritual practices simple, as the Dao itself is "extremely simple." He notes that attachment to material possessions and the desire for wealth can lead to emptiness and unhappiness.
Resource guide
Stephen Harrod Buhner's final book (an herbalist earth poet)
The Psychology of Money (audiobook)
Nickdanbeau Loveย Email: nicholasgiannasi@gmail.com
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Check Out The Transcript Below:
Mason:
I think, alright. No, we're going. Yeah. What does he say? What does master shall say?
Nicholas:
Yeah. He's, when you ask him for forgiveness, he says, don't be too doom and gloomy because there's a beauty in making the mistake to experience being forgiven and ask him for forgiveness and vice versa. It's, there's a beauty in having someone make mistakes against you so you can experience offering forgiveness. You know what I mean?
Mason:
Yeah, dude, I was thinking about, there's a couple of experiences that I like I hang on to, and like objectively say that I'm like, not offering forgiveness,, oh, sorry.
Nicholas:
No, I meant I've made mistakes that I've,
Mason:
well, no, I've definitely got those as well., They weigh way heavier on me. But in terms of those,, there's only like two or three that I don't know why I'm like, I've done, Like, there's been times where like forgiveness has been able to be offered, even in like interactions., Yeah, and I've like actively partaken in, in, forgive me, but that I'm like,, years later,, I, don't sit on it much, but I think it'll pop up into my head and I'll be like, ah. I find myself again after having the good theory. I'm like,, what is forgiveness again? Like where there's an actual event that takes place and I think about,, if someone comes and asks me forgiveness, there's two layers I can be like, yep, on the surface I do. But then there's like, what is it?
What is it in our chemically that occurs inside when I often think if someone was to ask me to forgive this, I'll be like, look, I don't hold anything against you, but I don't like, let's just see. I'll . Let that go for you. But I actually don't like, I'll see what happens as we go along and how I experience those events.
Nicholas:
From a Buddhist perspective, it's compassion, because compassion is love with understanding. So let's say somebody just say, I hate you really bad. And you were like, you know what? Never forgive him. And then as time went on, you were like, yeah, I don't care. I forgive him. But, it's superficial. If you found out at some point that the reason I did what I did was because of something I'd heard or something I'd been through that day that was really traumatic towards me. Just you understanding what I was going through isn't you naturally forgive.
Mason:
That's what I've landed on. just popped up again., When you were talking like just it lines what you just said, like curiosity is the only thing that gets me, that opens me up, it's almost like if I don't have time, I think about that whatever, something that you know comes off and I think I was egregious, and then I just don't have the time or the space. To be curious and even recall remembering like, oh yeah, I know that person. I know, they're great. They went through, they were going through this or that, or they didn't have the space. They just took something at face value and made a judgment. I've done that heaps of times. So on And so compassion like that when I don't have the space for,, consistent curiosity or, probably genuine comprehension. That's why, sometimes I,, enjoy when something in meditation pops up and I'm like, I'm not meant to be thinking about that.
It's like I just, sit in the space of it and just, get curious and then all of a sudden you find those, lines of gold that 'cause compassion I find is something I've really mucked up. Just going, yeah, I'm just gonna be compassionate. But it's like there's no substance to the compassion 'cause I haven't comprehended objectively what was happening. I've just gone through benefit of the doubt and that's not, haven't found that overly useful either.
Nicholas:
But you mentioned a couple of times there, space. Space is the key. You have to create space. So, the Buddhist analogy of,, you're walking out of a shop with all your shopping and someone bumps into you and knocks all your eggs and your groceries everywhere, and you straight away in anger say, were you playing outta you blind? If you found out they were blind, right? You straight away move into, are you okay? Compassion's there? Forgiveness has happened. You haven't tried. People who come to me and say, I'm trying to forgive it and I can't forgive, I say, stop trying to forgive. Just try and look into their suffering. But if you don't have that immediate understanding, they're blind, then you have to create space. That's why meditation's so important., The Buddha rolls are suture called the Art of flower arranging.
And the, teaching in it is if the flowers are too tight, they'll wither and die. They need space. Everyone needs space. So even though the Buddha taught 84,000 methods of spiritual practice, which is a lot over 40 plus years of being enlightened, he still emphasized meditation because understanding something is not the same as actually experiencing it. I listened to a Rimpoche give a teaching on dependence origination, which is emptiness in Buddhism. Everything that arises depends on everything else. And the teaching he gave was awesome. He said, if you are in a place of medi me and you were meditating now, and we felt really at want and in peace, there's no need to attach to an i, me or a mine. That's a away from us., The example he used was, he said, if somebody came around and said, you just stole my pace. The I, me and mine attachments come back and you defend, no, I didn't.
Or you attacked. That's what the ego does. It attacks defends and people talk about like their highest self and things like that. I think it's just always what we're having now. This is it, but it's either observing through an attachment to an I and me or a mine or it's not. And that's where the practice comes in, creating space. You can still use I and me and mine in the world to explain things, but you are not clinging to it. 'cause as I said, the Buddha summed up the 84,000 methods. One teaching, which is nothing, is to be clung to as I, me or mine.
Mason:
I'm just in the middle, one of my teacher's final book before he died., Stephen Harod Buna describing herbalist earth poet. But he is going through that when he,, got initiated by,, a non-physical elder and then,, started his comprehension practice. A lot of zen meditation,, Dao, but comprehension practice, stillness, space, comprehension practice. And he's,, talking about the external map that we have of reality and the way that we relate to people through like I and we and all that. And then the fact what happens when you actually,, and depending on how early you catch it, it's gonna be more of a,, process of feeling,, completely ungrounded as you go through it. That initiation.
As you go through and you don't just do meditation for the sake of space or in terms of making yourself healthier as you follow the map and, you remember, oh, I'm not meant to say I, I am meant to relate to us as a we, or well, like these, like when you actually,, you would, start really getting some rubber hitting the road on comprehending the terrain of intangible reality. And then you need to go back external and start adjusting that map. And I think that's where those practices like flower arranging and something funny, you bring that up., My sister talking about it with Tahnee the other day, like my wife,, I, you know that for anyone listening,, my grandmother was the head of the horticulture Society over, out in Orange. And she taught my dad like, my dad's a pretty, rough dude,, but, he was really great at flower arranging and it was like.
One of the things, I have my little hangups of dad,, when 'cause didn't get to hang out with dad that much. 'cause they divorced when I was two. Didn't learn how to sail. Even though he did the Sydney to Hobart. He was a ski instructor, didn't learn not to ski. I remember he was a queen scout. He never taught me nuts. The one that sticks is that he didn't teach me flower arrangement. I've got it sitting there on my,, I have it called my awesome list. So it's not a bucket list. 'cause I think bucket lists are cool, but like my awesome lists are things that I kind of just gravitate towards, including in my lifestyle. Slowly. And as I go along, I'm like, is it, do I actually need to do flower arranging? Do I actually need to become an Argentinian cowboy?
I just think, hey, what do I, actually need to do around those skills, but that the flower arranging as you go through that internal comprehension, having a few, not just a stillness practice, but then having your. Calligraphy, your flower arranging that allows you to like rewire the neurology as you rewrite the map that helps you relate externally based on what you've comprehended., I love that
Nicholas:
because even living in the world, if you have lost cling to an I me or a mine, 'cause that's what it says. Nothing is to be clung to as I, me or mine. But the sage can still use i, me and mine in the world. 'cause we need it in the world. But there's just no clinging to it. There's no attachment to it. I think a lot of people, like when the Buddha was asked to sum up what is enlightenment, he said the end of suffering. It wasn't like this superhuman. You know what I mean?, And I think a lot of people think when you reach enlightenment, and don't get me wrong, I'm not enlightened, so I don't want to,, give someone directions to a place I haven't been. But I, more I go, I don't think it's this. Place where you are. So now not available. I think you're more available to people, you know what I mean?
So, like, if you look at the great sages, I think they stood out because they were so authentic, so humble, like humility is something that most people don't see, but it's, it's so rare that when someone's genuinely humble, you do notice them because, it stands out from everyone else. 'cause no one's humble anymore.
Mason:
How do you get,, there's a, I know I sometimes,, get a little bit overing the amount of suffering and,, like I enjoy taking the piss out of the universe and, how insane this is and how much energy it's taking sometimes, just to keep afloat. But in terms of, well, using that suffering and,, no more suffering, walking into the, you know, through the eye, the needle. Then like not just retract,, not just like pulling back into the cave these days. I think that's still like really valid in some paths. But then,, still using the eye and using the we and being like not just a little engaged with the world, like highly engaged with the world, not just assuming that, you need to rise above,, career and family and obligations and all those kinds of things.
I see that kind of like that shifting a little bit and, everyone's starting to be able to use, the everyday it's not something to escape, but, part of the practice as well, eh?
Nicholas:
Absolutely. And I think with that teaching, like they say in Buddhism, even if you don't fully understand it, you should repeat it every day. Nothing is to be belong to as I me your mind that the workshop I've just held, I actually asked everybody is there ever a time. You can remember you've suffered, whether it's past, present, or something you might be anxious about in the future. Or do you know anyone that's suffering at the minute who is suffer? Their suffering is not linked to clinging to an i, me or a mine. Also, that's the end of suffering is to stop clinging to an i, me or a mine. But the Buddha went into why that's an illusion you see to clinging to an A true I, me or mine is a fundamental illusion because we see everything. It's like a universal illusion, if you like. Like we only see they say 0.01% of what's in this room, right?
So that means we don't see 99.99% of what's in this room. But the universal illusion is we see everything has separate. But we can put our finger on anything in this room. Even our relationship or things we don't see, like,, a sickness or an injury and nothing exists solely in isolation. Nothing actually has a separate self identity. Everything is connected to everything else for it to be there. If you looked at that light,, the person who designed, it's in the, his ancestors, all the food he's ever eaten is in the, you know what I mean? And you can trace it anyway. Therefore, once the separate self-identity is dropped, it then becomes full of everything else. So it's not completely empty. It's actually true wholeness. My Buddhist tu used to say to me, she used to say, keep going. Keep going on your journey. The blue sky will not be the blue sky anymore.
I just think, what is she talking about? You know what I mean? And when I started going interdependence, origination and emptiness to teach him, I realized that it's not a blue sky. It doesn't depend solely as a separate blue sky. It depends on factors for it to be a blue sky. And in the zen tradition, they say in the beginning, trees are trees. Mountains are mountains. Then when you go later on in the journey, trees are no longer trees and mountains are no longer mountains. But then as you keep going, trees become trees and mountains become mountains. It's. You have an appreciation for the separateness of things because it's still a microphone. And what's beautiful about all phenomena is it's selfless, it's humble. This microphone saves selflessly all the time as a microphone. So you appreciate it's microphone, but you also know that it's not a set, it's full of everything else.
You know what I mean? So it's a very different way of navigating the world.
Mason:
Do you find at that point, navigating the world when you get from, when it stops being a tree in a mountain and then you open up to the empathy and maybe alleviation of your own personal suffering due to the iness and then there's that suffering,, when you fall into like excessive, maybe like activism or I can't be happy because I'm aware of all the other suffering that's going on out there collectively,
Nicholas:
but I think. One important thing in the spiritual journey is a sense of humor. Master shas, teacher master goal, master sha. Like every spiritual teacher's funny. It's the first thing I noticed. Like when I first met my teacher, I was watching him like a who, you know what I mean? And the first thing I noticed was I was always laughing like . He's genuinely funny, but I grew up in a funny family, but all my family's humor is taking the piss out of each other. His was not at anyone else's expense. It was just funny, you know what I mean? It was really nice and refreshing to see. But he said that Master Gu, his teacher, and if you ever see him, he's like a strict old school master, as I say, he, he adopted Master Sha as his adopted son and then never spoke to him for 12 years. Tested him on what he calls total gold.
Gratitude, obedience, loyalty, and devotion., Really treated them bad for 12 years and then opened up and gave all the secrets to him., Then he said, the most important thing on a spirit of journey is a sense of humor. So you have to see the suffering because the suffering and the compassion is our motivation for practice. If you are gonna dedicate an hour's meditation, most people's meditation is selfish. It's what can I get out of it? Okay? But if I turn around and say, I am going to chant,, a specific mantra, for all beings, this time is dedicated to all beings welfare. And in any virtue I get from doing that, at the end, I'm gonna give that to all beings. The suffering is what motivates us to do that. To navigate in this world, we have to be able to see the insanity of attaching to the illusion. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Because it is an illusion. It is.
Every enlightened being that's reached the enlightenment said the same thing. Modern day language is, it's a simulation, you know what I mean? But it's somewhere along the line. It's an illusion. And the suffering comes from attaching to it.
Mason:
The, the sense of humor thing is interesting. 'cause I mean,, when I found myself treating everything too seriously and to go back and start engaging with the sense of humor, which started out just taking the piss outta myself and taking piss out of every dogma that I was in, and then gets to a point where it's just like, all right, well, it's not fun anymore. There's people who are on that path, who are, you know, in the middle of it, even though I find it useful to take the piss outta something, hopefully without malice, and have people. Get a little offended. Gotta to the point where I was like, all right, this is gonna lead to lead to a bit of cynicism. And, I find that interesting. Is that just something that emerges, you reckon everyone's got in them, is to have a genuine sense of humor?
It's almost like the perfect test to see if, like genuine funny observation without punching down or punching up emerges to see where someone's at. I
Nicholas:
think the funniness of it is even myself, right? I'm trying to set myself up as best I can to sort of try and retire at 50 from what I'm doing. And I'd never retire, but I wanna do something different, right? But I think, the overall humor of it is we could die at any moment, right? And even if I built a billion dollar industry. I'd help a lot of people if I could do that. But we fundamentally come in with nothing and we leave with nothing. And in between we still act like kids who got the most, you know what I mean? Did he get more than me? Then?,, It's really insane. And we're only here for the, for, you know, a far in the wind
Mason:
really.
Nicholas:
And,, it just, all these attachments. And that's why wisdom and the dharma is so important because at the time of death, no money can save you. Nothing. Material can be taken with you. But wisdom can, wisdom and what you learn actually can help you prepare for death, help you in the battle, and,, ultimately determine where you go after this life
Mason:
preparing for death., Yeah, it's one of my favorite things to think about. . Think that's probably the area where a sense of humor is needed the most. Mm-hmm. And in, thinking about it, I find myself taking that probably that maybe a little bit too seriously,, when I think about what happens during that,, process. But how do you,,
Nicholas:
prepare
Mason:
for death? Yeah,
Nicholas:
right. It's funny 'cause my son's, we've have some good conversations, some deep conversations. I remember,, six months ago maybe we were driving in the car and he said, what would you do if you died now? But like, would you be sad? And I was like, how could that be sad?, I'm being honest, like even though I was brought up in a pretty rough area, amazing family. Always had good friends., Beautiful wife. And I said to my son, I said, the fact that I've spent 15 years with you is like the ultimate gift family. That teacher, which I wasn't looking for, . I could only be grateful, you know what I mean, really?, And try and surrender. And also, if I died around my son, it's my last teaching to him. You know what I mean? To try and be aware of, look, no fear here, son. It's the last gift of teaching I could give to my son is how I die.
But,, when you reflect on impermanence,, I kept saying sometimes if there's ever like a little bit of,, getting a bit grumpy with each other in the family, I'll often say, you know, one day we're gonna say goodbye to each other. My family in England would say, oh, that's morbid meger. It may be meger morbid. Oh, eat it's true. Mm. You know what I'm saying? So why waste that time on this shit? You know what I'm saying?, But another thing as well is I used to always say to my son. He's hit this puberty phase in the last three years and just gone from a little boy to like, if I give him a hug now it's like hugging you. He's like a nugget now. You know what I mean? We're trying to get a different person and when we're teaching and we're talking about impermanence, I go as morbid as this sounds right? 'cause they say Buddhism isn't optimistic and it isn't pessimistic. It's realistic. Okay.
So when I show him pictures of himself just three years ago, I remember I, I miss you. And you were like that. But that's dead. Now that you is gone, now it's never coming back. You know what I mean? So we're always dying ' cause we don't observe it like that and reflect on it. We feel like we're not changing. You know what I'm saying? But even. How I think changes. Even when I got into my forties, I started reading spiritual texts different. I've always read the doubting, loved the doubting. Certain chapters were just hidden different, and it was just because I just noticed it in the last three years. So I think if we just surrender to the naturalness of it,, and do our best, I don't think there's any, I fear,
Mason:
I, um, very much indulge in thinking about. I think I could pretend to be more wise than I am and answer my own question, but I really enjoy sinking and going like, is it gonna be like an engagement of like practices, whether it happens like in an instant and there's gonna be like an engagement after that moment or prior if I know that it's a, it's coming and it's just a matter of being still, or whether it's like practice now. In all, the basic areas and those consistent areas, because, it's gonna be something completely different and you just want to have enough capacity to hold it and have spaciousness as that process emerges, which we've never experienced before. I
Nicholas:
think time ultimately is what affects us in those situations because rather than being fully present with it, let's say I was having a heart attack. Now all the practice I've done, maybe I might think, oh my gosh, I won't get to see Danielle and Bo, so, where am I going? Future time, right? Or, oh my gosh, I haven't done enough past. And I think that creates an anxiety, which then makes the process difficult.
Mason:
Do you think that's about resolving things now? Like that's why it's just practically good, say, to maintain a good relationship and or, and never leave anything unresolved or. Get your will sorted or I think, you know, make sure your, funeral is like paid for and you've got it described like how you want it. So that, no little thoughts pop up in that moment. I think that, and, I actually think it's gonna happen to me. It meant nothing. Makes me laugh more that I'm gonna be dying and I'm gonna think about the fact that, like, I haven't, there's an email I've left sit there and I'm gonna be like, oh, that's fine. I'm never get that. I'm not gonna get back to that person. I want whatever it is. Like, it'd almost be like the greatest, in terms of have so much in life, have the deepest thoughts. And your final thought is just something like administration. That would be funny.
Nicholas:
I think if you are excited with life, think it was Socrates . You hear that Socrates got poisoned.
Mason:
Oh, I knew he was poisoned. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicholas:
But apparently the story was, he was excited. To see what happens when you die.
Mason:
That's fun.
Nicholas:
So he was actually going up to the guys who were getting his poison rhythm saying how long's left. Like he can you hurry up. You know what I mean? He was like, he knew he was gonna die, but he, was actually excited because this is gonna happen. So let's just see what happens. You know what I mean? I think we can approach everything as best we can like that., And the thing is we've done it so many times as well.
Mason:
Yeah. The practice, I know like, yeah, a lot of people like going and doing mostly ayahuasca where they have their ego death and you get to practice death and that's all great. I've had my experience there and was very cathartic, but,, I feel like at the moment a lot of my practice is allowing some of the values I had like when I was in my late twenties to die., And I've found that really sticky., In the way that, what a successful life is and you know what it's gonna look., But nonetheless,, it's a really,, a real,, it's not like pessimistic or optimistic, it's just realistic. Is it optimistic? You said it's not
Nicholas:
optimistic. Pessimistic. It's realistic.
Mason:
And that's realistic. That's like a realistic thing that's in front of me. If you hang onto that mate and you don't let it die, it's like, it doesn't mean you're not gonna die. And I'm talking to myself in this and, you know, if you don't let it go and,, absorb it or, you know, allow it to evolve, you never know. That was just maybe like really relevant there. But the way that, like freedom or travel or, like, family, how it looks now, it's gonna be the same root crop that one came from., Which is, that's just where a lot of my practice, I think, you know, maybe sits, I think I'm through that process, but anyway, that's a death. And I'm gonna have another one you know, as you said, the kids are gonna, you have those little, deaths that are occurring and those little births that are occurring at every moment. You're right., It's like it couldn't be more obvious what you're training for.
Nicholas:
Absolutely. And even like when you look at the breath, like if you got attached to your next inhale, oh, this is the best breath I've ever had. If you try and keep hold of it, you won't last very long. You have to let it go. So we have to allow things to come and allow things to go.
Mason:
Yeah. I've really tried, I mean, while I was like in, I think we've been bumping into each other at the cafe, what it's like three years now. Good. You know, always on a Friday morning after I've just got outta practice with my teacher.,, but yeah,, you've seen me come with the Naing too and I'm like, yep,, you are the first one to see the posters, ira. I'm like, yep. You just saw it in the meeting room for the first time, like, yep. Putting that up there so I can. Relate to business in terms of like,, dantian and Jing, Qi, Shen,, but I've,, putting our morning standup meeting about five to 10 minutes every morning,, is called the chop wood carry water, and just kinda like doing everything I can to,, while I was going through, you've seen me go through some,, bit of a transition over these last few years.
Sometimes challenging, sometimes euphoric, whatever, but,, the chop wood carry water is probably the only one because it's been every day at five meeting I see that pop up. You know, thankfully had an acupuncturist who was like, really,, over the years like,, chatting about things that are happening and I was like,, sometimes yeah, this and that. And he's just be sitting there and just always talk about the little enlightenment moments that you have. And then, all right, cool. Let it go. I wonder what adventure you got next. That's what I'm like, oh dude. But what I shared with you was so awesome. It was such a good achievement. I just did, he was like respectful about it. He just did. It was genuinely didn't. Care. It's, I love, I think about it so often. Yep. As well. Get back to it. Get back to chopping your wood and cut in your water. carry in your water.
Nothing's been, and go to wherever, the water is,, that's, nothing's I don't think has been as useful as like,, just keep on moving, keep going, keep going.
Nicholas:
Just don't resist it.
Mason:
And then go, well we chat. I'm gonna go get the ing there 'cause I haven't opened it yet by vitally That's his,
Nicholas:
who's this? This
Mason:
is my teacher.
Nicholas:
Oh,
Mason:
nice. But he just did one for,, interpreting it, from the inner alchemy. Very nice approach. I might see where we end up, in terms of a chapter
Nicholas:
and then Lao Tzu. And he says the sage goes around teaching, no talking.
Mason:
He goes around teaching, no talking. How do you think these things like the, we are going through this like amazing. Absorption of these practices into the, modern world at the moment. You know, you can see Buddhism, Zen, Buddhism, Zen,, yoga, shamanic practices, Taoism sometimes super appropriating. But in general, everyone's really hunting. Everyone's got good intentions. I think as messily as we do it, everyone's got good intentions. We're, I'm not trying to really appropriate, we're just trying to like, draw this, draw this into the world., I remember when we were, chatting one time, you had a job to do, I think you were, cleaning some guy's roof,, in like middle pocket or something like that. And you were saying,, it was like a part of your job and why you like the job is it puts you in these situations where you get to go and have these seemingly random conversations with people.
And it was a guy, something happened with his son. Was it his son?
Nicholas:
Yeah. I remember it was roundabout the time Elon Musker just said he was going to start. Doing self-drive and taxis and you could, buy a taxi and it would make you money. Just, I dunno, I don't think it came of it. But that's what one of his presentations and I turned up with this gentleman's house and he was talking about it and he said to me, oh, beats clean windows. And I was, I was like, yeah. I said, I actually don't mind what I do. And then as we carried on work and we got talking and he was an atheist and his son, I think his son was only 21, 22, and he developed throat cancer. And then long story short, his son basically died suffocated in his father's arms. And, we had this just amazing conversation. He said he wanted to keep the body in the house for a few days and so all the family could come and see the body.
And he said the reason he did that was because he said, when my son died, I knew that wasn't my son anymore. The body. He'd left wherever he'd gone. He wasn't there anymore. And he said, I wanted the family. He said, I've got a big family. Wanted us all, to know that., And he said, I just can't stop crying though. And he said, every time I look at his picture and he starts crying, two of us were cry. It makes me wanna cry now. I said, but the two of us were crying. I get it. I totally get it. But we had this, beautiful conversation. He'd started reading spiritual books and, we gave each other a hug at the end of it. And I said, mate, if I had a Tesla company, I would never have met you and I would never have had this conversation. You know what I mean? So, yeah. Nah, you can enjoy what you do. For sure.
Mason:
Yeah. I mean that,, in the modern sense, just, get to your job,, I think it was before we recorded, you were talking about your wife's, thinking about ., The monastery. 'cause I, I feel that as well. I sometimes, that's part of one of the things that I. I'm probably close to,, like, I'm objectively grateful for the path that I've taken and for everything that's happened. But, I've got this very real lingering, ah,, it's definitely not resentment anymore. It doesn't overwhelm me anymore, but it's in that ballpark of damn, you know, I got taken on this path, of,, this business and, this being really locked down. I thought I'd always be like a,, not actually a shaman, but like a traveling,, just a traveling, you know, just little, I don't know what even what the word was. It was just one mate was like, it's not the word shaman, but it's the only thing I can kind of think about.
It's like a little traveling shaman and just, you drop in here, you'll go back to a village, or you'll go back to a city or a little community every like four years or 10 years and you'll, and I'm like, yeah, I really related to that. Perhaps am doing that. But nonetheless, like that's.,, it's like a fantasy. It's become a fantasy rather than looking at the reality of, what my life is right now and finding the elements if I need to, or making the adjustments if I need to. But nonetheless, like it's something, I thought about it a lot. I think it was really, maybe I didn't even acknowledge it because I've thought about it quite a few times since you said that to me. Probably didn't tell you that either, but, I'm like, yeah, you know what, that's like washing windows, sitting down, doing performance reviews,, creating relationships to make sure,, sales channels are open.
It's so normal,, it's so chop wood carry water, and you gotta have something where chop wood carry water, is occurring in your life. The capacity for me, you know, I definitely make choices to Myself,, I didn't remain a CEO. I've abdicated that. That means like, maybe not as much cashflow available in the company, so on and so forth. So I'm still making the choices,, I'm like, oh, there's no escaping this chop carry. If it's not this, it's something else., I'm kind of getting to the point where it's like, it's not actually this thing. It's no matter what I do, I'm not accepting the,
Nicholas:
so it is like the mundane is sacred. The
Mason:
mundane
Nicholas:
is sacred. Mm-hmm. That's what the interdependence teaching done for me. I was like, wow. When you look at how everything that ara that exists is dependent on everything else,, you take advantage of using your iPhone. Someone could have committed suicide 'cause the way conditions of that phone getting made, and we have no idea. That's why living consciously eaten consciously rather than being a vegan and putting, or not picking on vegans, but let's say you're vegan and a lot of vegans are very angry. They're putting a lot of psychic pollution in instead of consciously trying to bless their food, for example,, and looking deeply into the suffering of every food. Where's vegetables, fruits, you know what I mean? There's suffering tide to everything. I think,, seeing the sacredness in the mundane, and when you say about fantasizing as well, it's really interesting. Again, it's time.
I think the ego needs to have problems or fantasies in time. The reality, I was talking to someone about this. I was like, the reason why people love fantasies. Let's say you have a sexual abstraction to your neighbor, right? And the fantasy is you might get together and you know, have sex and it's amazing, right? But the reality of if you actually, in that same fantasy thought, you know, what, would it actually be like if we did, right? We did have sex. And then, she actually wanted to see me more and then my wife, found out and I'd lost my family. And then it's like, the reality of it is it's not that good, but that little part that everyone fantasizes on, you know what I mean? Seems amazing.
Mason:
Is that again, does that come back to space again of taking those little seeds and then seeing where it takes you? 'cause that's exactly where I've been at recently. Not that fantasy, the fantasy of,, but, even,, that one when I was,, much younger, I remember having so much space that, so quickly I would get to that point where I'd think about. Not so much. Maybe, you know, it was not never so much other like women with me.
Like I know there's something there, right where I did it, I can't remember what the exact example was, but, I had enough space to really, and I remember doing enough plant medicine that it was just like my capacity to run through the circumstances and comprehend exactly where that would take me and how quickly it would gas out, the excitement and the dopamine and the oxytocin would gas out and then you'd just be in a new cycle and then you'd go chasing it again and again and again. Really grateful for that, you know, getting facilitated in that. Yes, with the plant medicine opening up, but then in comprehension practice to be able to. Again, like, don't avoid when these things come up.
That's like where, the real strict religion of just like naughty, not allowed to have that thought is like probably the naughtiest thing you can do spiritually rather than just like, what are you actually looking for? You know, what would happen if you went ahead? There's actually no reason to stop. But yeah, for me doing that and thinking about right, what would this life be like if you were just, traveling around the place, just following your nose, no consistency., Where do you end up? Can you have both? Can you maybe, is it the fact that you don't want to get to like 55 and have no real solid place that feels like home and maybe then on top of that, be able to go and do it later? The verse when I do the da de Jing, sometimes I joke when people go, like, they bring up chapter. And they'll be like, oh, you know, 43. And I go, oh, great chapter.
You know, like those Christians that just like know every Bible verse and pretend don't like, I'm like, oh my gosh, I love that one. That was really one of my favorites. Just say 43. Is that one of your favorites? 43. Oh, I can't remember. Good. You'll have don't talk. Yeah, I was gonna know you were bullshitty. But this one I thought it would just, it would be fun., This is what the one I opened to,, the softest things in the world can overcome the strongest things in the world. What does not exist penetrates where there isn't even a gap. Thus, I know that non-doing has benefits teaching without words and the benefit of non-doing, only a few people in the world can achieve this.
Nicholas:
That's what I think is the, what separates Lao Tzu from a lot of sages., The Buddha taught a lot by answering questions. 'cause his Sanger kept growing it. 'cause he traveled around India, he kept getting more, . But Lao Tzu didn't speak. That's why when Chuang Tzu came along, Chuang Tzu didn't shut up. I mean, he was great. Chuang Tzu, he's a funny burger, but, oh, I didn't know him. But you know what I mean? His, writings are funny. But Lao Tzu saw, like in the da de Zing says,, the low is the foundation of the high, behind follows in front. You know what I mean? It's that interdependent nature. But to see the world in that way, you don't resist anything. You allow things to come and go in the silence, because in the silence, spaciousness and stillness, that's where all of the conditions of the Dao exist. So yeah, I love that chapter. There's a story of lousy as well, where he says, um.
He was given a teaching about the soft outliving, the hard, and he walks past an older gentleman and he goes, look, he's still got his tongue, no teeth. You know, the teeth are stronger, but long term, the teeth will go, the tongue will always,, exist. You know what I mean?
Mason:
Was it you that told me that?, There's that myth., I went and had a look for it afterwards. I couldn't find it. But, that story of the previous identity of Lao Tzu and he got called on by the emperor to come and,, teach his secrets to the emperor, and he said, yeah, not before midday
Nicholas:
Zu
Mason:
Tzu.
Nicholas:
Yeah, he's, he's known as the long lifestyle. Apparently he lived till he was 880, but there's a twist to that as well. But, uh, yeah, yeah, he wouldn't do anything till midday
Mason:
and then. Disappeared. And when he returned
Nicholas:
250 years later,
Mason:
he was under the alias of Lao Tzu. There
Nicholas:
was a gentleman called Lao Tzu. He had a sage called Lao Tzu. Yeah, yeah. Same guy. Yeah. I mean, I love them stories. Oh, me too. I mean, he just visited them all day. But yeah, you know, Pong Tzu apparently lived till he was 880. But that was a wisdom that my teacher shared and I was just like a child listening to that. Just so excited. Yeah. I love that stuff.
Mason:
Yeah. The,
Nicholas:
it's like in the wheel now. Sorry to jump in. No, go. When you look, at the soft and the hard, it's like everyone knows what the control and bodies do in the world. You know,, these are cult practices and all this jazz, right? And everyone just resists., Which in many ways,, if you understand how we in. Interact with this reality. Whatever we are feeling, we are contributing to all beings. Right? So if you find out they do something and you go into hatred and anger, I think that's one of the reasons they've started letting people know who they are and what they do, because they're still winning. But there's always an equilibrium. And in many ways, we always need, the resistance, to wake people up. You know what I mean?
Like the Buddha always had his cousin, even before when he was, uh, sad, Arthur still his cousin, he had conflict with when he came back and, and resolved the issues in his family as a, and, and, and traveled as the Buddha, his cousin followed him, but always give him a hard time. Yeah. And he said apparently one of his teachings was. The first pace, and I need to enlightenment, enlighten is my cousin, because without him, there's stories throughout history of that as well. When there's, there was a, a, a chef who was always really rude to one of the, the masters of a temple used to throw his food at him. And the, the other monks used to say, get rid of the chef. He said, no, no, no. He's always there. You know what I mean? So you, you need, you need that, you know what I mean? If you don't have that, um, you won't have an opportunity to put the practice into practice.
Mason:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. The space, one of the favorite, I dunno where it came from, the analogy, but, um, the, you know, if the lights are off in life and you're walking through kind of like a, sounds like you're walking through a forest or a terrain and there's a handrail, and as you get to the end of a path and you're holding onto the handrail, there's gonna be a period where you need to let go. And at that point though, you need to have absorbed the teachings of that part of the path. Or some basic comprehension, um, or awareness of just being like, yep, I've got a compass. I know I'm gonna move in generally in that direction, and I've got, you know, faith, it'll be like, you know, whether it's like a minute or a couple of years that I'll like land and be like, yep, that, and that's right. That's why I went down, um, that path.
But it's so scary sometimes to let go that you just go, right, I'm just gonna turn around and just walk that path again and just go back and forth and just go back and forth on that path. The, um, the, you know, that, that space now I know I, and again, like I've got it in my, you know, family and business when I, I hit that point and I know that I'm, doesn't need to be a big change, but I'm like, this is really familiar and it's getting really old and really benign and it's like, I know how to let go of that. Part of the path and move on to the next. But sometimes I feel like what I haven't been doing is engaging in the practice so that my compass is there so that I'm kind of moving in the, in the right direction.
And I can, when I talk to a lot of people in business and in, um, in fatherhood and even like her motherhood and, um, like tani's, you know, like at Tiny's got a friend who just gave birth and like huge part of their practice is when they, you know, especially having a birth at home, you know, knowing that you know the direction to take the birth. You know, it's a real, like, it's a, it's a, it's a such a big, um, skill. It's such a big identity, um, shift. Have you got, is that generally the point of the practice and the cultivation?
Nicholas:
Using a similar analogy. Whenever you're around your teacher, you'll always get insights. Because let's say you're in a dark woods, right? And you've got a lighter, so you can only see what the light is light enough. When you're with your teacher, you tap into their light and you see the path. That's why you get so much insight. You know what, I'm gonna do this, this, and it'll fade when you leave your teacher. But when you're actually with your teacher, it's like, whoa, I'm going to do this. You so, so inspired. The path seems so clear, but when you actually leave your teacher and you're on your own, you have to turn the lighter into a torch, and that light is through practice. So that's how I see it. You know what I mean?
It's like you get insight once you are in meditation and whatever the practice is, whether it's body tapping with five elements, or it's stretching or it's whatever it is. If you use a type of movement to take you to the stillness or a mantra, whatever it is, I think fundamentally once you get to that stillness, you, you, you get vision. And how
Mason:
do you make the distinction of those different types of, you know, like you, maybe you use movement in order to get, you know, like an in, in, um, in Daoism or maybe if we've used the same terminology, if we talked about it, the Ming Go and the Shong, um, you know, that Ming Gong essentially been, you know, external health, energetic health. Whereas Mo where most Qigong sits, and even like when it gets to like meditations that are about, um, say mental health or making us healthy of, of body, um, and heart mind perception rather than getting into the shing go where there is a whole other, um, I assume like the, um, when you talk about meditation.
Nicholas:
So fundamentally when we look. See my teacher actually flipped Jing Chen. So in Taoism they talk about Jing Chen. He flipped it to Xi Jing. 'cause he says if you change the Chen, which is the information or the soul level, Q and Jing follow 'cause Q and Jing are carriers of message. Okay? And if you heal the soul first, the mind and Bo body will follow. So how do you heal the soul? First its contribution service. You purifying, you can make death. Right? So if you were to, uh, think about Lao Tzu for example, right? Or tzu, they will carry their own Xi, j xi Jing is actually field theory. Okay. So would you say that their field is a more light, refined, wise field than mine? Yeah,
Mason:
yeah,
Nicholas:
of course. Right? So by chanting their name for example, and holding them close. In Buddhism, they say the mantras never leaves the lips. I remember meet meeting a nun once in a temple we used to go to. She was a traveling nun. And when you say hello, she'd say, AMI tofu. Ami tofu was a pure and bud, and if you watch the, even when she wasn't saying namo, Amit tofu, her, her lips were gone. She was always with Amit Tofu, because I think I shared this with you. My Buddhist teacher gave me a teaching on karma. She said, if a, if a, if a lion is chasing a gazelle and you shoot the lion or get in the way, you've entangled the karma, but if the gazelle runs behind you, you have a karmic obligation to to, to try and help you. Right? So the Buddhas can heal us and the Taos Saints and God or the Tao can heal us. But. Spiritually speaking, we have to bridge the gap. We have to ask for help.
This is why we chant answers or we call on them. So whenever I'm talking about practice in general, I'm just talking about a lion and our jing with a higher jing, whether it's the Chen Jing of the Tao. I remember Master Sha said once that thou is humble and it's everywhere, but if you don't want to interact with it, it won't bother you.
Mason:
It's very polite.
Nicholas:
You know what I'm saying? Good. It it won't bother you. Yeah. Boundaries. Yeah. And if you look at the world right now, it's like when you look at influences, I mean, why do you want to try and influence anyway, but let's say an influencer, do you think they're on a daily basis connecting with the Dao? But it's so lost. The, the material aspect of the world is not connecting with the Dao. You know what I mean? So when I, when I'm referred and that I'm saying whatever practice gets you closer. To harmonize 'em with the doubt. That's what I mean by practice and whatever, that mine varies. Sometimes I know my body needs a shakeup and sometimes I know if I've been doing a lot of overthinking, I need stillness.
Mason:
One of the things I think, I think, you know, like it's always, um, two things occurring at the one time, and I, I think in practice that's probably what I've, um, engaged with over the last year and a half that it is Chen Chi Jing. Um, because I became so distracted by the five phases, the five elements, and feeling them and feeling the qi and um, which I do, and likewise, sometimes it's like I don't need to sit there or stand there for an hour. I need to go and, uh, lift some weights or I need to go for a run or do some y yoga. Um, however, when you talk about like influencers, I think about this, um, a lot at the moment. In, at the same time say Jing relates to our fail foundational capacity to say, be able to retire at 50 and be accumulating resources. And there's this, um, I guess this contrast, this yin and yang between internal practice that helps us contextualize and see.
You can start to feel very objectively that excessive accumulation of an asset is going to start. Making it very hazy in terms of being able to engage with that greater shen, whether that's a shen that feels related to yourself or everything Dao Universal and that's what I've, it's been, it's, it's been a real recalibration for me and my practice. Yeah. Especially since, um, going on retreat last year where as I've come back into the map. The world in terms of like creating popularity, growing a podcast, you know, growing it, making sure that it's just within a, um, a framework that gets maximum numbers or no, there's like, you know, appropriate numbers, um, you know, more within an ecology. Likewise, simple practice when it comes to jing and say finances and relating to family so that you have a family that's like intact by the time you get to 55.
So that, you know, these are very simple for me, Jing, habitual, um, you know, not living beyond your means. Like that's like a, and then also not living beyond your means and still understanding how not to like, sacrifice also the cultivation of joy within yourself or family. That, that having that contrast all at once and allowing them to like inform each other. That's been a real interesting thing for me where that, that Ming go, or that real life application has been kind of informing the way that I relate to my internal practice and likewise other way around.
Nicholas:
They're not separate. Mm. You know what I mean? They, uh, da in the da J is the big Dao is extremely simple. I think we can over complicate things.
Mason:
Yo
Nicholas:
matter matter is influenced by information, by spirit. You know what I mean? It's not its own thing. Um, you know, you have a physical body, so we say, and then what moves Qi, but what directs the qi is the she, you know what I mean? So, um, yeah, I just try and keep it as simple as possible and it'll always be spanners getting thrown in the wakes. But it's funny because when I have this idea of financial security and things like that, it's, it's usually this idea that I need to do it for my son. Right. Which is interesting in itself because he is got his own journey. He'll do, he'll do whatever he ends up doing and it's fine. And. I fundamentally try and always be aware of the fact that the things we do and own, if there's too much of an attachment, they own us. You know what I mean? So many people say they own their house. It's like the way they speak about it, the house owns them.
It's, it's really funny. I've got a lot of wealthy, um, clients, like really wealthy clients, and I remember listening to, I think it was an audio book that you'd listened to the Psychology of Money. And there's a story in there of a gentleman that's in prison now. 'cause he, he, he did a, like a scam, but he was always complaining and he felt poor 'cause his friends were billionaires, but he was away for like half a million. Dollars.
Mason:
Uh, like half a billion,
Nicholas:
half a billion, sorry. He was with half a billion. His friends were billionaires and he felt poor. And I come home after working on one of my clients' places who's very wealthy, like ridiculously wealthy, you know what I mean? And I remember coming home, and this wasn't a judgment on him by any, any, he's a lovely guy. But I remember saying to my wife, I said, the more I'm there, the richer I feel with just how we are. You know what I mean? Like so many, like the world judges your success by how much money you've got and how much things you own. You know what I mean? And it's just, that's why a lot of celebrities, they'd say that, oh, like people who make it, that's when the real depression hits because they're like, wow, this is what I thought was going to save me, and I feel worse. You know what I mean? But they've got no wisdom or understanding to realize.
That's just all impairments anyway.
Mason:
Do you think that's a part of your practice? Those, um, I think they Buddhist practices, especially within the meditations for all and healing for all, um, kind of diffuses a little bit of that competitiveness that, because it must be, is it a competitiveness or an like, it's an ego and it's an eye, um, that leads to that. Like, oh, they've got that and I'm, I'm still going through that process of separating myself and my identity from the business kind of getting there. But that's the terrain where I kind of feel that, oh my God, that business is doing like that turnover, I, gosh, I didn't even realize that they were doing that all the while. Like, I thought we were on like a similar skill level. Like that's kind of the only place I feel those like surprisingly pop up and, um, and merge.
Nicholas:
I think it's cultural conditioning. Yeah. But I also think it's time as well. Let's say I built my business, all that you did over 20 years. My attachment might be, this has took me 20 years of hard work. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It's actually time. That's the, that's keeping me bound to it. I'm not saying you do that, but I'm just using it as an example.
Mason:
No, I think that's fair. Uh, that's something about, um, you need to watch out when you, you know, like for me doing especially DAO practice that kind of like is almost takes for granted that you've got that foundation that you aren't attached to worldly, um, worldly wealth or. You've accepted your obligation that, you know, maybe you won't be able to cultivate as much as you want because you've got your obligation to your kids and your family, and you will do the best if you can. And you know that, you know, like that's, they're, they're all like foundations. And then when you really start sticking into the alchemy, that little cherry on top is that you get to cultivate your elixir, your down. And then there's this, you know, the DAUs were just like, oh, cool karma. Um, you know, Samsara W Sweet. That's, that's a good model. Yeah. We'll, we'll whack, we'll whack that in.
We'll plug it in and then. From there, there's, you know, they're like, and you're like, well, why, why are we, you know, why is there say like an escaping or an, an emerging through or beyond, they're like, I just don't think about it. Just accumulate your, and it's, I feel like that's an area I've been very fortunate to have a, a teacher and have had many years in the foundation. You can feel that, that becomes sticky as I think we alluded to, like my, you know, transcendence beyond samsara. My, um, you know, going through that process of collecting my little elixir and my big elixir and then my, my jade elixir and then my gold elixir and return to the unity and then beyond the unity to the Dao. Um, it's so funny how self-absorbed that can become so quickly,
Nicholas:
but you keep saying, foundation in Taoism, foundation in the body is what's important. Building a strong foundation. If you have a weak foundation, you'll feel empty, but it's not a good empty. It's the never fulfilled, empty, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Um, my wife always saw spiritual images. So if you ever speak to her family, they'll tell you all these cool, oh, remember how Danielle did this? Remember how Danielle did this? She's always done that. And then when we moved to Australia, I had two years of sort of atheist. I moved away from religion. I was just over it. And I went down the science, you know, road. And
Mason:
how long ago was that?
Nicholas:
That would've been 2007.
Mason:
Oh.
Nicholas:
And then what happened was every time we moved into an apartment, my wife was like saying, I, I don't like it in, I'm seeing things. And I was like, it's all in your head. It's all in your head. Long story short, when we found Master Sha, which was literally, we didn't, we didn't even know what a spiritual teacher was, but how we found, we found them. It was interesting how we found them, but when we did, she actually said to me. Hear what she's seen changed and it was so new to us. She would, she would get like a name and a, and a, a an image and she, we would go on Google and she'd go, that's Ian, that's, and we'd never heard of any, any of this. You know what I mean? It was really amazing time for us. And um, but if you don't have a strong, the reason I'm telling you the story, if you don't have a strong foundation spiritually speaking, you become very depleted.
And my wife had years of just so exhausted and, uh, the advice that she got, she said, you know, when you see those inflatable kids toys that have a weight at the bottom, you can punch them. They spring back up. Uh, she was told, you are like one of them upside down, so you have to do, her advice was to do two hours foundational spiritual practice.
