Today on the podcast, we are graced with the highly cultivated holistic healer; Erin Lovell Verinder for an intimate discussion around her devotion to the plant path, the world of herbalism, and why we are witnessing a timely resurgence of this revered profession of healing. A Herbalist, nutritionist, energetic healer, mentor, and author of two incredible bodies of work, Erin's the kind of woman that leaves you wondering; How does she do it all? Birthed consecutively amidst a pandemic, Erin's books, Plants For The People (Thames & Hudson 2020) and The Plant Clinic (Thames & Hudson 2021), are modern classic guides to the world of plant medicine and herbalism, endowed with elegant visual codes of your favourite coffee table book. This is the second time we've had Erin on the podcast, and we're so thrilled to have her back.
Both versed in the love language of plant medicine, this conversation between Tahnee and Erin is a celebration of herbalism, filled with nuance and some progressive insights on not gendering herbs through their application. Erin discusses what she calls her pillars to thrive, supporting the immune system during the pandemic, and the profound effect of having a gentle approach to healing and detoxing. A remembering, a becoming, and unfolding of the world of holistic herbal healing; This episode is one for everyone. Tune in.
"You have to be a savvy business owner as well. I've had different iterations of having a healing space, my own multi-modality wellness space, which sold and successfully ran for many years. Then being a head-practitioner at a busy, busy clinic in Sydney, and then being digital and writing books. I've had all these different iterations, and it's given me a lot of perspectives. But there's a lot of things I wished that I knew when I came out, and if I can help people in that way, I'm really excited to do that because it's a big job".
- Erin Lovell Verinder
Tahnee and Erin discuss:
- Immunity protocols.
- Drop dosing for kids.
- Herbal remedies for kids.
- The gendering of herbs.
- Detox and cleansing culture.
- Viewing fear as a mental virus.
- Herbs as the people's medicine.
- The matriarchal lineage of herbalism.
- The process of healing and becoming.
- Knowing yours, and your child's constitution type.
- Healing the gut; An energetic core of our constitution.
Who is Erin Lovell Verinder?
Walking the plant path, Erin Lovell Verinder is a woman in tune with the natural world. On a full-hearted mission to educate, assist, and up-level how we can all heal with the rhythms of nature through the bounty of plant medicine and gentle innate interventions to unearth thriving health and wellbeing.
Erin is a fully qualified herbalist and nutritionist, wellbeing expert, and mentor. She runs a bustling clinic and works with clients worldwide. She is also the author of the much-loved Plants for the People and the newly released The Plant Clinic.
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Check Out The Transcript Here:
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the SuperFeast podcast. We have one of my favourite guests. You're Mr. Guest of the show now, Erin. Erin Lovell Verinder, who is a beautiful Herbalist, she's also an author, and we're here really today to talk about her new book, The Plant Clinic, which has already gotten pre-discussed in my house. It's, again, a stunning book, but also a really practical manual. Even for someone who's like trained in herbalism, I'm using it all the time because it captures all these protocols and concepts and ideas in this really beautiful and succinct way. I want to congratulate you on your new baby. Well done.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (00:39)
Thank you so much. That's so sweet.
Yeah, and welcome back to the show. It's great to have you.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (00:44)
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, I'm so happy to have you here. Your first podcast was one of the most popular, so it's really great to have you.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (00:51)
Oh, that's so sweet.
Yeah, I know. We're like aww. I think people just love... and that's something we've always been really passionate about is like, yeah, it's great to buy products and we love that you can buy SuperFeast from the shelf or whatever. But when you start to make your own herbal medicines, I think there's something, I don't know, that connects you to herbalism in a different way and connects you to the energy of the plants in a different way. I use pre-made stuff and I make my own stuff. I think it just depends on where I'm at in my life. But, yeah, I think having books like yours, especially, modernising herbalism because a lot of the old books can... like they're awesome, but they can be a bit retro [crosstalk 00:01:28]. How's it been going since publication? Have you been getting any positive feedback or?
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:37)
Yeah, it's been lovely. I've done two books now in the pandemic which has been like fairly wild and interesting. That they're being birthed at this time when actually I feel like they've been really needed and the spirit of plant medicine is like singing, I think, at this time within the pandemic and everything that we are moving through as a collective. Yeah, so Plants for the People came out in my March 2020 when the pandemic hit, and then The Plant Clinic just came out August 31st in Australia when we were all basically in lockdown. We were in the eye of it, so there were no stores open. Which was strange and I had to add a real block around that initially like, "Oh, I can't do in-person and people can't go see it at the stores."
Erin Lovell Verinder: (02:22)
But I moved through that and it's actually, of course, it's been really well received and people are finding it and ordering it, and yeah, giving me such beautiful feedback. There's nothing more rewarding than that. Honestly, I get so much from those messages and emails about how the book has impacted their life or their little ones life or how they're working with their family in health and herbs and how they learn how to do this from the book, or I came at the right time. Like a lot of people say that I picked the book up and it's just at the most perfect time and that really thrills me. Yeah, it's been beautiful, it's been a beautiful exchange of putting the book out and what's coming back to me, which is beautiful.
Yeah, it must be really rewarding, and how much work goes into these things. Yeah, incredible to see it in the flesh.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (03:13)
So much work.
Yes, so much work.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (03:13)
Sorry, I was going to say this book really held us captive for over a year, and Noah, my husband, designed it so it was this real family effort and creation from our little family to you all. It was a major, so much work. So I'm so proud of it to see we did it, we did it, we made it.
Yeah, well it's quite encyclopaedic in a way of like it really... I think Plants for the People was this amazing introduction to the world of plants. But then this is almost like working with a herbalist. It's got almost protocols and what a day would look like if you're working on a specific issue? And there's pillars of health that you might get introduced to working with a clinicians, so for me it felt a bit more actually going and seeing a practitioner. Like this book's almost like one in your house.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (04:05)
Yes. No, really, that was truly my intention of writing it, for sure, was taking all of my years of clinical practise and knowledge, and as best as I could, distilling it down onto the paper to support and guide people with these daily protocols and how to work with plants as if you were working with the herbalist. Because the truth is like not everybody can access that one on one care and afford to weave that into their support team and whatnot, or access it. I just wanted to create a body of work that was super accessible and had all of those. Oh, so much in there, there's just so much in that book, for sure.
Yeah, well, I think and I really appreciated like you have got a lot there for children and around dosing. I think that's stuff we get asked about a lot at SuperFeast. There's a lot of fear around working with herbs and children, and at different stages of pregnancy and postpartum and things. It's quite confusing on the internet. Like I saw you made a note in there around like you're going to read different things and they're going to conflict sometimes. Like I wonder do you have any overarching philosophies around working with kids and how do you approach that? You've got some dosing guidelines in here, but I'm just interested to flick that out a little bit.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (05:22)
Yeah, for sure. I wanted to shed light on that because, yeah, you're right, I get asked all the time as well. When I started my practise as a herbalist, I was really specialising in paediatrics. And for years I really worked very closely with kids and their parents because you're always working with parents when you work with kids too. Which sometimes is the harder piece, to be honest. But so dosing was important and shedding light on working with children was important to me. I'd say that one of the biggest pieces around dosing with kids is that often less is more. So really even looking at drop dosing and working with more this energetic concept of dosing herbs, then these big wacky, not wacky, but big therapeutic dosing.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (06:10)
Yeah, I had a whole section on drop dosing in the book, which I feel like can be really helpful. That more ease, using your intuition to start it just like these small little drops. You might start with five drops in a little bit of water for your little one, or instead of doing like a big meal dropper, it might just be like a few drops and see how your little one responds in that way. Drop dosing's a really good one to consider with kids because I feel like kids are so responsive often to herbs, to the plant world. Yeah, so I always start more with a drop dose approach, but there's a bunch of different rules in herbal medicine that you can calculate doses based on...
Erin Lovell Verinder: (06:52)
So there's Clark's rule, but there's also Young's, and excuse me, so I would look at those and I've actually highlighted Clark's in the book because I feel like that's you're looking at... There's ones that look at age and weight and there's all these different methods that you can use. But I feel like Clark's is just really easy.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (07:13)
Yeah, I've noticed that in my treating my daughter, because we've not really had much more than colds and she had a sore ear last night actually at 3:00 in the morning and gave her some immune herbs and put some Colloidal Silver in her ear and gave her a little limp massage and she woke up like, "Oh my ear's fine now, mommy." I'm like it's amazing to me how fast they heal, and I'm like, "If that was me, I'd probably still be in bed going ugh."
Erin Lovell Verinder: (07:42)
Totally [crosstalk 00:07:43].
She's like, "I'm good, I'm good. I'm ready to go to school and I love just..." Yeah, I hardly gave her, I probably gave her eight drops of this little immune tincture that we have. Which it's a bit stronger than the mushrooms like to give her sometimes things that pack a bit more of a punch if she's properly unwell. But, yeah, I really noticed that you just don't need much and homeopathics are so effective for them and those kinds of things.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (08:05)
Yes, absolutely. Responsive, so responsive, and they shift really quickly, really quickly. Like a stupid charged shift with kids. I would say like really go low dose and just read a bit more about it. Like in the section of The Plant Clinic, get familiar with that, and then you do have to use your intuition a little bit knowing your little one like what's their constitution like? What do they respond from? Are they really... I've outlined the constitution piece in the book and there's only a little section on it.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (08:39)
But I feel like it's so helpful to think about whether someone has a more robust constitution or a more sensitive constitution. Because it really changes how you approach dosing with plant medicine based on that. I would even implement that ethos into looking at your little one, are they quite robust? Are they sensitive and how would you dose them as well around that?
I think that for adults too, it's something we speak about a lot when people come to us with dosing issues. Like they might take a quarter teaspoon and be like, "Are you sure these aren't psychedelic?" I'm like, "No, they're not. But you're obviously very sensitive, so for you, you're not going to need a very large dose at all. You can get away with like probably an eighth of a tea spoon or a pinch or something." That's great, good value, off you go. Then you're going to deal with people that are stronger, more robust, less sensitive to their energy body and they're going to be able to take much higher doses and not be affected by it. Yeah, I find that a lot that people miss that bio individuality piece of like you are going to behave and perform differently to everybody else.
It's tricky like we were chatting before we came on with the compliance and regulations that we have to meet as herbalists. When working with a product like ours where we're selling it directly to the public, we have to state dosage and this isn't always aligned to what I believe to be true. I would actually prefer it to be a lot more nuanced, I suppose. But, yeah, just the way it is. Energy's kind of that was your first domain, I suppose, like working in that more subtle realm. How has that come into... has that been coming into clinic more for you lately with all this stuff going on? I imagine you probably need some protection yourself.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (10:29)
I [inaudible 00:10:30]. Yeah, that's so interesting. On lots of levels, it's been coming in strongly. For my own practice because what has been presenting... so clients, what people are moving through and what we're moving through collectively, I really do believe it's a whole new paradigm and people are operating on a really different level than they were operating on pre-pandemic. As a practitioner, definitely it has impacted how I show up and what is needed? What's the demand on me to hold that space, and it's like I have to cast a bigger circle to hold it. That's been interesting in my own process and witnessing what that's bringing out in me and how I can show up. Yeah, for sure, that's been a whole thing.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (11:25)
But in terms of what people are moving through and whether or not I have to call on those energetic parts, for sure. I'm always, in everything that I do as a practitioner, I'm always doing my best to honour the unseen forces and the subtle anatomy of it all. That means even if I'm working with somebody on their gut, I'm also honouring the emotions of the gut and the energy systems of the gut. I'm not just looking at it in a very black and white physiological anatomy and physiology, or like even the action of the herb or the action of the nutrient of food that we're working with, I'm more thinking about to the energy of it and the energy of what that person's moving through.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (12:13)
Yeah, it's always a consideration and it's for sure a big consideration right now. Because what people are moving through is far... Like obviously people present with physical symptoms or imbalances that need support. But I really do believe that things are driven by our emotional bodies and spiritual bodies and our mental bodies too. I do believe that there's always involvement, right? I do believe that those aspects aren't... it's a lot going on right now. There's a lot of deep emotion that's tied into the physical right now. Yeah, I'm for sure working on those realms and levels always.
I know you're seeing that in presentation more around adrenal type stuff or is it like... Personally, in myself, I can feel like a tendency to withdraw a lot more in a lot more sensitive just in general to people and energy. I'm also pregnant, so it's hard to know how much of that's pregnancy and how much of that's COVID. But, yeah, I've really noticed that in myself, like I just have a much smaller buffer between myself and the world and I'm having to be quite protective of that. Which was unusual for me because normally I'm quite comfortable with big groups and people, and now I'm like, "Oh, no, there's like 10 people [inaudible 00:13:33]." It's that stuff. I don't even know what you call that, like sensitivity and maybe anxiety and a bit of that.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (13:44)
Yeah, I would say that there's... Like really what's coming forward, it's got a lot to do with the nervous system, and for sure, I would say that there's a lot more anxiety and a lot more deep fatigue. But like sensitivity, a lot of sensitivity, sensitivity to stimulation, depression, or low mood, low vitality. And just a lot of fear, there's a lot of fear that's going around, and I think fear can be a bit of a collective thought virus as well? There's like people are dealing with the fear and how that's cycling in their body, and fear of being unwell. There's just a lot of fear. I think that that's what I started talking about and referring to that new paradigm. Like everyone's just operating on a very different level right now.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (14:43)
As a clinician, having been in practise now solid for like over 10 years, of course, I've never seen anything like it where everyone's experiencing the same thing in some way, in such a way. Obviously, we're experiencing similar things by being alive on the planet at the same time, but not like this.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (15:03)
Acutely, so people present with being maybe they want to talk about what they can do to support their immune systems, or their concerns about the vaccination, or which is very hard to navigate as a practitioner, for sure. Because actually this is a space that we are legally meant to step back from. There's just a lot of like what people are curious about and what they're worrying about. But the anxiety and the depression and the adrenal stuff, it's all like nervous system adrenal system, fight or flight survival mode stuff big time.
Yeah, we're activating the sympathetic nervous system.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (15:50)
Yeah, I can see that like we've got a team of about 30, so I can see different waves of things move through, and yeah, I've noticed those kinds of things in our team. I think I really... like that's one of the things I love about this book and would really recommend to people if you are thinking about immune protocols, you're thinking about anxiety and managing that with herbs. Like you've got calls for those listed out in here like whole chapters devoted to them. I think just having, I know for me, having things that I can lean on that support me, it's like a bomb.
It's like you might be aware of that feeling and that sensitivity, but you don't have to lean into it too far because you've got these things to prop you up. It's where I think herbs can really store on all these beautiful, calming, gorgeous herbs that we have of access to reishi. I'm loving all these [inaudible 00:16:44] lately. I can just feel this real need to nourish that inner aspect.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (16:50)
Absolutely. Yeah, and personally, it's funny, even oat staw are like I've got a little milky oats tincture on my table here, on my desk. Yep, and I've also been taking reishi myself as well. The two that you mentioned are very much like present in my field, in my body. Because I think the biggest thing is how can people shift from that sympathetic nervous system state to that parasympathetic rest and digest state? And how can I support them to do that? That's a lot of the work I'm doing right now, for sure. A lot of it is about our herbal helpers and how our plant medicines that calm the nervous system, and even can gently sedate the nervous system when you're in a really acute state of anxiety or panic or fear.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (17:42)
It's I just feel for everyone. I feel for everyone so much right now. There's just so much of that going around, so that's why I actually... Obviously, I didn't... Well, I was writing, so I was writing the book in the depth of the pandemic. But, yeah, that was a part of why I wrote the emotions, mind spirit section, in The Plant Clinic. Because, as a clinician, even pre-pandemic, I was always treating lots of anxiety and working with people with anxiety, panic, depression. Just that low vitality as well, and all stemming from more of a mental, emotional place. Yeah, so I'm really proud of that section because I just really feel like it's rare to come across a body of work in herbalism that addresses that directly. I feel like often we're not talking so much about the spirit in, at all. Sometimes-
I completely agree. It's all physical and often very... Like it's something I really love about your work is obviously you have the background of the energy medicine and then you've also got the more chemical constituents like biomedical background.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (18:54)
Yeah, herbals and nutritional medicine.
Yeah, and like this nice intersection of... which I think is where medicine really needs to go is like, and what has drawn me to Chinese medicine and Ayurveda and these things in my life is like we need to acknowledge that subtle realm and their unseen forces, as you call them. That's a really potent part of healing and a potent part of why we often have anxiety and things like that. We disconnect from what we really need or what we're really calling for in our deepest selves. Yeah, I think herbs really help with that, and I think even the action of preparing your own medicine and preparing your own tonics and things like there's something very nourishing and soothing in that.
I don't know, just like it's a small, simple process that moved you toward maybe where you want to be. I think that was something I really noticed and loved about the book was it was that section, and you should be proud of yourself. It's important and I know it's hard to speak to those things as a practitioner sometimes because people can sound woo woo. It's something we struggle with a lot. Like we want to be woo woo.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (20:06)
Totally. Yeah, girl, I'm just so at a point where I'm like, "This is what it is, guys. I'm not even worried if I sound woo woo."
Erin Lovell Verinder: (20:14)
I'm just like, "This is my message. This is what's coming out. Receive it or don't."
Well, I love it. You're a little bit more evolved than me. I'm still [crosstalk 00:20:24]-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (20:24)
No, no, no.
Bit, no. I think it takes some confidence though, and some like, probably, like you've had these 10 years in clinic. You're like it's this little experience of this is what I see and it's proven to me over and over again and I can't avoid it.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (20:40)
Well, it's just that thing of like you can't compartmentalise health. It's like we're whole beings. If you're going to, like I said, just example of the gut that I'm circling back to that, if you're going to work on the gut, of course, you have to work on it from a very physical level. What's going on in the gut and how can we heal the gut? What are we eating? What are we feeding? But what are we thinking? What are we, actually, what are we absorbing from self-talk? What's our environment like that impacts our digestive systems? What are the roots of the gut dysbiosis? Is there trauma there? I think working on the gut, it's like the deepest seed of like our actual beginning of our root system. The beginning of us-
Yeah, like our, what's the word, evolution in the womb as well-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (21:27)
Absolutely, it's the beginning.
... with primal layers.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (21:30)
Yeah, and it's like so I often feel like when people are working deeply on healing their guts, and I do a lot of digestive healing with clients, we're going back to the roots and it's so powerful. There's people always go through really big, almost like deep initiation and rebirth canals when they're working on the gut in a way. And I'm like, "Well, it would be like I'm going to get half of the results if I don't honour those other parts of what someone's going through and support them through that too." I know this from doing it for so many years, so yeah, I'm like I'm all in, I'm all in.
Well, that's enough.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (22:06)
I'm all in.
Here I am and I noted that page in your book where you talk about on unfolding and healing isn't pretty, and I think that's something I often try and emphasise for people. It's like it's not just these detox reactions or herb reactions and things that we get. But it's like if you are... I know this personally, like my work around my gut was deeply connected to a lot of stuff from my childhood and it was not fun. It was not fun at all to start actually acknowledging the pain and the stuff that was brought forward from remembering and acknowledging those things. But the outcome being have a great digestive system in these days and it's like, yeah, it's worth it but it's not always nice.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (22:54)
Absolutely. Yeah, that's really important in my process working with people, and I think my ethos is healing is not always pretty, it's not always straightforward. It takes time, you're unfolding and allowing that to be a process. It's the process of becoming. I think becoming is a real theme in my work, and when I mentor people too who want to walk the plant path it's like we're a little bit I'm geared towards like this a little, a lot. Geared towards instant culture, like this instant culture, instant gratification culture, and we just want to do the thing and then that's that. That's what we are, and I'm like, "Ah, there's a whole process."
Erin Lovell Verinder: (23:42)
For me to show up who I am, I've walked these 20 something years now to get to this place where I can confidently say to you all, "Hey, take it or leave it. Like this is who I am and this is what I've got to say." I'm not saying I'm... I've got work to do still, I'm just saying this is who I am at this point. But-
It's still unfolding.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (24:04)
It's still unfolding. Like I've become to this point and healing is like that. It's a becoming and it's just an unfolding and it's gentle and it can be gentle, sometimes it's not. But you have to be gentle with yourself in that process.
I was going to say, and I noticed a tendency toward gentleness in your work, which I like. There's not these extreme, like your detox protocols and things, they're not these extreme crazy things that we've all... Maybe not everyone's tried, but I've definitely tried some of it [inaudible 00:24:33]. Look, there's space for them in the world and I'm not trying to say they're wrong, but I think, especially in times like this, where people are so sensitive and there's so much collective for like angst and fear and stress. Like gentleness is probably the best medicine we could give ourselves at this point. I hope I'm not speaking for you, but that's-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (24:54)
No, I totally agree. Yeah, for sure. Gentle is definitely my approach, and in writing a book that I know that is going to be accessed by all these different people and they're not going to be guided by me personally. As in they can just call me up and ask a question. I really wanted to write a book that I knew would be gentle for people and they could have a really soft pace with it, but also get results. I think that kind of concept, detoxification as well, because, yeah, there's a whole detoxification section in the book. I wanted to dispel a bit of myths around like this whole cleansing culture and detox culture.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (25:38)
Yeah, the whole section explains it well around like your body's naturally detoxifying all the time, so how can we just, every minute, so how can we support those systems to just give them a little extra lift? But in a way that just actually flows with what they're already doing. So you might find that, "Oh, my liver is stagnated." Well, your liver is still doing its thing, it just needs a little bit of help. Yeah, that was my approach of like, "We're not going to do anything drastic. We're just going to be really gentle." But it can often be so profound when you are gentle in your approach.
Yeah, I definitely like preconception with Ayo was pretty hectic, and this baby, I made a real effort to not be like that and I focused a lot more. I still did a bit of preparatory work that was very gentle, and then I focused a lot more on building and nourishing myself. Which I think I neglected that part a little bit with Ayo was a bit more like gung-ho with the cleansing. Like I didn't get any morning sickness at all this time. I did get a lot of rage, so maybe I did quite of both.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (26:50)
[crosstalk 00:26:50] rage.
But it was interesting having like just that really different first trimester experience of like with Ayo was like if it wasn't salty and crunchy, it wasn't going in my mouth. Whereas with this baby I was like, "I can eat pretty much everything." Yeah, it was a lot more gentle to navigate that first trimester, and yeah, except if you were Mason Taylor because you were not having a gentle time, but [inaudible 00:27:18] high oestrogen perhaps. Yeah, really I thought that was really interesting just personal anecdote. Yeah, and again, like you speak to hormones a lot in your book and it is a gentle approach.
I think especially with women, we are cyclical beings and we are very sensitive and I think a lot of... and I've read a lot of books by male herbalists and that can be very gung-ho. It can come in hard and it can come in a little bit aggressive, and I think it's nice to bring some of that gentleness into that space as well.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (27:58)
Yeah, I think, yeah, fully, and I think herbalism has been... I think there's a heavy matriarchal lineage running through herbalism. The OG lineage perhaps.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (28:10)
The OG lineage, exactly. So I think there's also a really different lens of perspective when you've been trained in that lineage as well. That's definitely been my lineage, and all my teachers were women, which women identified which felt correct learning with this softer... I mean not all soft but-
Yes, I've had Susan Weed on the [inaudible 00:28:37]-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (28:37)
Not soft, Susan, not all soft. But, yeah, the teachers I really resonated with were just very, very soft. So that really also expanded my path around how important that felt for me to have that gentleness as a teacher and a writer and a clinician as well. I just I really want people to feel held in whatever I do, and there's a softness to that, whatever that is. That matriarchal maternal instinct to want to be soft and to want to hold that space.
Yeah, and I think that's really aligned to... One thing I think we both have like as a theme in our belief systems is this idea of herbs is people's medicine. If you think about like traditionally women are going to hold the kitchen, they're going to hold the garden, and they're going to be holding the medicine in a way. I think there's this real sense of something I've always said to Mason, like I want to be 60 and I want to be old and I want people to come and be like, "I've got this," and I always give them something. It's like a potion. I think there's this real beautiful ancestral line of women healers that I think we're seeing this resurgence in like...
I just had Asia Suler on the podcast, and she's very feminine in how she works. Yeah, I can feel this, I don't know, this softening in the herbal world. When I started with Mase, it was guys doing tablespoons of mushrooms and it's bio hacky. It was really hectic, and I was like, "Whoa." I wasn't drawn into that, like I was drawn into working with the herbs and the mushrooms, for sure, but not in that way. Yeah, it's been interesting to watch that space change as well. It's a lot more feminine now and a lot more soft.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (30:29)
Yeah, for sure. Then on the flip side of that too, I feel like what's fascinating is as we let go of these concepts of gender, and gender is a construct as well, how people, non-binary people, might be practising herbalism. And bringing it into this space that, they're definitely practising herbalism, but bringing it into this space that is like neither that nor that. As we upgrade our language and the love language of herbalism just keeps expanding from different voices who have different perspectives. I think that's also really interesting. And just also thinking about plants, not in their male or female plants. I think that's really limiting in terms of my idea of how I think about plants, and that's changing and growing, and as I grow. But, yeah, I've really been feeling more into that.
I'm interested in this, because we come from a modulus tradition where there is a lot of genderizing of everything. I definitely had that bias, and I would obviously love to... I've done some workshops, actually, I did a really amazing workshop with a non-binary teacher in Oregon and she was like... Well, she wasn't a she, but she looked feminine to me, but I think she was a they, and they were speaking a lot about female bodied people and herbal abortions and working in that space around trauma to do with birth and miscarriage. Look, it was one of the best workshops and trainings I've ever done, and they spoke a little bit about the non-...
Like this person's clinic really served that community, so they spoke a bit about issues in that community. But I don't see a lot of representation of that in the herbal world, maybe you do more because you might be a bit more exposed to it. But, yeah, I'd be interested in your experience. Like how are you now relating to plants through that energetic realm if you are not choosing binary terms?
Erin Lovell Verinder: (32:50)
Yeah, look, it's really interesting because I think that, first of all, I think herbal culture in Australia is really... and we've talked about it. We went into this in the last podcast, which I really loved because I thought it was just a really interesting perspective for you and I to talk about that. Because we both have a lot of experience with American herbalism and that spirit of herbalism in the States. Having you train there and me spending so much time there, and because my husband's American and having such a kinship with America. But Australian herbalism is just so, so different because we have to study in these private colleges or university settings, and essentially, it's a health science degree, or whether you do a health science naturopathy degree or whatnot. And you're learning herbs or you become a herbalist at Western Herbal Medicine.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (33:39)
So that in itself already puts herbalism in a really inaccesible place for a lot of people here in Australia. Because unless you've got... My debt from school is from training is insane, let alone what they're paying now and that mine was so long ago. I'm just saying that because it like casts an awareness on not all types of people would have access to doing this kind of training here in Australia. Obviously, you can learn herbs in different ways, but if you were to go out and practise and learn in a structured setting. Whereas in America, and this is what we went into on the last podcast, it's like it's the people's medicine. It's like essential to have that medicine in the system where there is no universal healthcare.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (34:28)
Therefore, I think herbalism reaches a lot of different types of people, and not just privileged people. Not just people of privileged who can go and do those kind of degrees. There's a different spirit to it. I think that there's a lot of exciting things happening in the States with non-binary people who identify non-binary, but are herbalist and they're practising in ways that are undoing some of those structures, which I think is really fascinating. I'm still listening. I'll continue to listen and learn, and yeah, I'm curious. But the way that, for me, how it's impacted, I think I just always felt like those systems didn't feel super true and resonate with me.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (35:15)
Some of the systems of like these are women's herbs and these are the men's herbs. I know these are ancient traditions, so I'm not saying that they don't have a place and there's not a lot of gold in all of that, of how we can treat female body people or male body people, or let's use those terms just to streamline this conversation. But I do feel that I didn't deeply resonate with that. So there's a section in The Plant Clinic that's Mums & Bubs, and there's a section that's hormone health. I was like, "How do I be more inclusive in those spaces?" But I'm trying to convey what I'm trying to convey. I had to use certain terminology like Mums & Bubs, or like this is first-
[crosstalk 00:36:01] people and-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (36:01)
... Birthing people and mensturating people. Yeah, so that was a little tricky, but I wrote a little note in the book on gender terminology and I was like, "Oh, this is going to really shake it up, isn't it?" Maybe this is going to shake it a little bit up, but hey, I think that's what we're all here for as well to open conversations and to get people thinking about a different layer, a different perspective. And how boring if we all just felt like we all knew it all and it was the exact same way forever. The times are changing, and that means herbalism is changing too. I've witnessed it changed dramatically from when I started studying to now. There was really like it was so wacky, if you're a herbalist. It was like, "Oh, good luck. Like get onto the world, let's see what happens?"
All in three months.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (36:58)
Totally. Yeah, exactly. You might not have a job real soon or your clinic probably will fail because there's not that many people into this. It felt like that when I got out and now it's like it's in a totally different place where I feel like it's having this epic renaissance.
I agree, yeah.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (37:16)
Yeah, and it's just so rich. But so rich in action, in movement, in growth. I just feel like... Oh, so back to your question about how I'm practising it, it's more about the energy. It's just, honestly, it comes down to the energy and the presentation of what someone's going through and how I would meet them with herbs. It's like a herb like Shatavari, which is a very beautiful I think central herb that is very much linked in with a woman's herb. Because it has such an effect on the menstrual cycle, and it is a beautiful herb for women. But it's a beautiful herb for everyone in many different ways. Even like those really we think of them as really Yang ginseng like Panax ginseng or Korean ginseng.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (38:12)
We think more to apply those to men. But, absolutely, I just do not think that is true in terms of how we can apply it to all people just in... If it suits, if the presentation's correct, if the energy's correct, if the dose is correct, it's just about listening. I think it's just about listening. Like I might think, yeah, a herb like Rose is just really feminine. We use that like soft, feminine, the unfolding, the petals of Rose. But I know a lot of people who could do with Rose, and it's just heart medicine. I just challenge that a little bit in The Plant Clinic, but it's just it's my own perspective.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (39:04)
But it doesn't mean it has to be true for you, and I do think that aeons of information around herbs that would be supportive for our menstrual cycle, and say, supportive for sperm motility. Of course, I understand that they're applied to like this male identified person or this woman identified person. But, at the same time, I'm just challenging that idea of that actually isn't everybody as well. There's just this nuances, so we just need to open up space for nuance.
Yeah, and I think it comes down to the intention of the person ingesting the herbs as to what kind of energy shifts they want to experience in their body? I can imagine if you're a male body person who identifies as female, you might not care about your sperm motility so much. So you might not be interested in working with those herbs. But then, again, I'm very clunky in this space, so anyone listening please feel free to write me an email about it. But I definitely have had like a personal experience of the universe having a binary, like two binary forces that are constantly in motion. It's hard to explain in words, but it's more of a visual or a felt sense that I have.
I can understand that there's a spectrum between an extreme of each, whether you want to call it yin and yang or gender and male-Feminine, whatever, the Shiva-Shakti from the yoga traditions. Like I can feel this real truth in that sense of the binary is always in motion between one another, and that creates this experience that we live in. We're going very deep right now.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (40:51)
But for me that-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (40:54)
Unexpectedly deep into this area.
[crosstalk 00:40:57] on the radar today. We haven't had enough sleep for this conversation, but yeah.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (41:01)
Totally, forgive us if we're stumbling through this. But I think it's important to talk about it. It's important.
It is, yeah. This has formed my, like cosmology, has formed my worldview. This sense of this dance between these two poles creating this manifest reality. That's literally how I've ended up explaining to myself how all this is here. I can understand that those like masculine and feminine terms aren't necessarily useful, but I think what you're pointing to, and I've had this experience in myself. Like postpartum, Deer Antler is not a herb I relate to normally. Postpartum, I'm like, "Give me that stuff." It's like I can see that I've gone through this big depletion of my yang of given birth. It's like a huge journey, and it's like to pull some of that masculine or yang energy or whatever you want to call it into my being is a really powerful medicine for me at that point.
I don't keep doing it for long, it just it's a period of time and then I'm done with that again. I think I can relate to what you're saying there. It's also I think I often, for me, I've really related to ratio's a very feminine energy, but I would always expect men to take it because I think it can connect them to that softer part of themselves, like what you're saying with Rose. Yeah, and I remember you... I might not remember it word for word, but you said something to the effect of this book is for older people. There are some sections that are working toward women's reproductive stuff, and yes, they might not be useful for everybody. But, in general, herbalism is for everybody, like just about tuning into what's right for you in the moment.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (42:51)
That's it, that's ultimately what it is. I think I'm just curious as well about out doing, undoing old paradigms. I think there must be something with that [crosstalk 00:43:08]. What's that?
Just in like paradigm breaking mode right now.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (43:13)
Yeah, make it all [inaudible 00:43:14]. No, I know, I'm just curious about these things that sometimes I think... Look, I know that that's even in writing these books, I felt like that was actually breaking down a bit of a paradigm in herbalism. Because, personally, my experience of, and I think most people would agree with this if you've got a big herb collection of books, you would know that most of your books are written by older people. There's a real sense of like, which is beautiful, of course, the elders in the community and these people that have lived all these years and all this experience to put it down in a book, what a gift. But being a younger person, and I'm nearly 40, I'm not super, super young, but being a younger person, writing a book about herbal... It was like breaking the boundary there a little, and I think I just maybe like doing that. I don't know.
I think that's a theme in your work, and I think I also see a lot of courage in that. Like that you were able to so young guide yourself. If you haven't listened to our first podcast, Erin did a lot of really early training in energy work and things before training to be a herbalist. For a young person to have the courage to fuller those paths, I think that takes a lot of, I don't know, self belief or faith or whatever you want to call it. Is that something, you know, did you bump up against that in putting these books together? Was it like there's a self-worth thing here or like an imposter syndrome thing or were like, "No, I'm feeling strong and solid in there."
Erin Lovell Verinder: (44:52)
I was really supported, so I think that feeling really cheered and supported was a huge piece of feeling like I've got this as well. Well, I just felt like someone had to do it. I felt a bit like, "Well, someone's got to do this, someone's got to do this."
You're an Aries, aren't you?
Erin Lovell Verinder: (45:15)
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:45:16].
Erin Lovell Verinder: (45:18)
Yeah, I don't know.
Aries runs a lot, "Yeah, of course, I can do it."
Erin Lovell Verinder: (45:21)
Everybody else is like, Oh my God, it's so scary."
Erin Lovell Verinder: (45:25)
Well, and like it's so classic me as well to just like... even when I enrolled in herbal medicine and nutritional medicine, which was like a double degree vibe is what I was doing at the same time. I didn't even read the syllabus, I was just like, "Yeah, I'm going to do this. I've got this." It was like, "I really want to be this. I wonder what's going to happen?" Then I got it and I was like, "This is a science degree."
What am I doing?
Erin Lovell Verinder: (45:46)
Yeah. What is this biochemistry and pharmacology? I really didn't know. I think, in a way, probably anyone doing their first book feels that way too. Like you're so excited about it, you sign up, you do it, and then you're like, "Oh my goodness, this is so much work. This is so demanding and hard." I think I did that with the first book, I just dove in and was really excited and eager. I was like, "Yeah, someone's going to do this. It's going to be great. I'm just going to tell the stories of the plants again and just introduce people back to that remembering." Then I got there and was like, "Oh, this is just this is hard." But I felt confident, and I was like... I sound like such an Aries right now.
[crosstalk 00:46:31] a lot of it.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (46:35)
I felt confident that I could pull it off, even though it also brought out other parts of myself. I'm a Liberian rising, and I think that I'm so such an aesthetic person and I really love things to look beautiful and be visually like visual eye candy and pull you in. That was actually really fun for me because both books, I got to strengthen that muscle in me of making things beautiful. I think too that has been missing in the modern herbalism space of bringing books to life that people want to put on their tables and the coffee tables and having the kitchen because it's beautiful.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (47:16)
I think that there's just no denying that we're all very aesthetic creatures these days, and particularly, with Instagram and the social media channels where we're all pulled in from the visual of everything. Yeah, I just think it was timely to just bring a book to life that both books that are just visually pretty. But, yeah, for sure, that's definitely my nature just to be very much like just jump in.
Yeah, I love it there. I think like you have brought it up, more than brought it up, and it's you're completely right in the visual. I think I've got your books at home, but I think we've also got both of them in the office and people just go straight to them. We have like, I don't know, I want to say thousands of books on herbalism and-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (48:04)
You have lots of books [crosstalk 00:48:06]-
I've got more even at our house, and people would just go straight for them and it's, to me, I'm like, "Oh, that's like the plants are being sung into people's hearts through the visual storytelling as well as your words." I think that's really powerful because images they connect us in a different way. Just I was looking into the moustache and picture in here and I'm like just that joy and that bright laugh that these sessions bring to a space. I think there's something really magical about that. I think what I really also liked about this one, I'm trying to remember your first book which I haven't read in a little while. But you talk about the pillars to thrive in this and I'm not sure that was in the first one. I don't think it was.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (48:55)
No, it wasn't at all.
Yeah, could you talk a little bit about that? Obviously, get the book for the in-depth look at it. But I'm just interested in right now we've talked a lot about where everyone's at, sensitivity, we're feeling a bit un-hinged [inaudible 00:49:10]. We've gone deep into the cosmos. We've tried to navigate gender issues in terms of some really practical stuff. Like not that none of that is practical, but-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (49:21)
... like how would you say to people like, "Yes, we've got herbs," but what are those lifestyle pieces that are non-negotiables for you that need to be honoured to be well in this time?
Erin Lovell Verinder: (49:34)
Yeah, I think I feel like that's such a foundation of the book are those pillars. I wrote the book really with all of those elements in mind in every single daily planner.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (49:47)
Yeah, I wrote it around them and that's it. In my clinical practise, I've learnt that, like we talked about before, you can't compartmentalise a person's healing process and you can't pull them apart and say, "Just do this and you'll be great." What I've learned is that we've taken the herbs to really allow them to sink into a deeper state of received healing in the body. We need to do other elements and to take care of the body. We need to make sure that we are hydrated, we're eating good nourishing food that's healing for us, we're resting, we're connecting to nature. We're really mindful of what we're saying to ourselves. So our self-talk and we're moving our bodies. The pillars are just those elements, and the rest, the good food, moving your body, connected to nature, self-talk, body movement. No, I missed one.
Yeah, I think you got them all.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (50:41)
Erin Lovell Verinder: (50:41)
Connected with nature.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (50:48)
Yeah, those pillars are super important. It's very naturopathic thinking about what are the elements that the body needs to, the body being, needs to be supported with to heal. You'll see in every protocol. Like let's say there's a protocol for an acute cold, it will say practise the pillars, and then it says which pillars to practise. You might want to do, obviously, like to do them all, but you really focus on rest and really focusing on hydration and eating good food. Then I suggest some foods that could be really helpful too. The book was really written around those because I really believe that to work with plant medicines, you need to also work with those elements. I felt like it was seriously negligible of me to write a book about healing with plant medicine without mentioning all those elements of how we can heal holistically and truly.
It's something that comes up so much for us where someone will call and be like, "Oh, I run 50 kilometres a day and I work 80 hours away. Can I do this essentially at work? Can you give me for my adrenals?" I'm like, "Hmm." I just would like to say that I'm happy to help you and support you, but really that's not a sustainable way to live forever. These hormonal issues you're experiencing in this insomnia and all of these things that are coming up for you like we can't avoid looking at our lifestyles. I think, again, this gentleness, that was something that I've certainly learned and I felt in your... You're not preaching anything, you're not trying to say like there's a right way or a wrong way.
It's just like, look, these are pretty basic foundations that we all need to acknowledge are essential to living. And you have to sleep at some point and you have to drink water. Yes, I think they just become... and it's nice to have them laid out in such a simple way, I think. I think it was really I liked that you had like say with the code immunity one, like rest is a priority now instead of maybe moving your body. I think it's important for people to remember that it's okay to not do your physical practise some days if your body needs to rest more than anything else.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (52:54)
Absolutely. Yeah, they're just so fundamental to really working with healing your body and your being. It's just the simple reminders to return back to those practises and a gentle guide. That's really what it is, like those pillars to thrive when you read them and get to know them. But I can't tell you how many times in clinic I returned to those, and then constantly I'm just repeating myself around, "Let's drink more water, let's rest more, let's move the body more, let's eat these foods." It's amazing how simple it is, but we need to be reminded. I know, personally, I've got my big water bottle here and I fill it up and I'm going to really work to hit three of those a day and drink three of those a day.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (53:43)
If I don't have my water bottle there, I forget. I'm just not an amazing natural water drinker. That really helps for me, and so I have to put my intention and energy towards weaving that in. Because I feel way better when I'm hydrated. It's just, yeah, it's always those elements, those little things in that book where it says, "There's a little tip on how to drink more water." I hope that really helps.
That's what we get in clinic. Again, I remember being... I know we've both had adrenal crash in our lives and mine came I must've been about 23 or '4. I was pretty young. And I remember going to see this naturopath and she was like, "Okay, babe, you're going to put a bottle of water on the front seat of your car. You're going to put a bottle of water in your hand like this." Then she's like, "If you're stuck in traffic, you drink a sip of..." I had to be coached through, God it's embarrassing now, but like having enough water. Then she's like, "I know you're going to eat three meals a day and you're going to have some protein in everything."
It was just this stuff that now obviously has become integrated and is stuff I'm trying to teach my kid, and constantly stay on top of it. But, yeah, I'm the same, I'm not someone that would go and reach for a glass of water unless I'm dehydrated, basically.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (55:01)
Yes, to the point of dehydration.
It's like, yeah, it's good. I'm like just have a jar, always there, refill it regularly. I've even had to have apps at points in my life, but it's just like that's how you get through it. Same with [inaudible 00:55:16], I was talking, a lot of moms can probably relate, you get to like 9:00 and your kid's asleep and you're like your house is clean and then you're like, "Ooh, me time." It's like-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (55:26)
Yeah, and then you sit up and watch three hours of shows.
[crosstalk 00:55:29] I've had to just be really tough and no fucking computers in the bedroom. Like, no, we don't have a TV, so it's like I have to be tight with that stuff or else one slip and I'm doomed. I appreciated having that, it was a good reminder even after all those years and all this money spent.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (55:55)
That's the thing, these pillars really they're free. Obviously, we pay for our food, but a lot of them are super accessible and pretty much free. It's like that concept too that "wellness" is this big thing and it has to be expensive, and it's like that's actual bull. It's about coming back to these really foundational, fundamental practises that make our bodies and being seen and thrive and they are so simple. That's really what the pillars to thrive are, and yeah, you very much heavily referred to throughout the whole book to bring you back and keep reminding you how to practise them.
Again, like you would have with Erin in face to face [crosstalk 00:56:44]-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (56:44)
Exactly. Can you imagine me being like, "You can do it. Drink your water."
Take care of yourself.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (56:50)
What are you saying to yourself?
You could record me a go to bed Tommy lullaby, that'd be good.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (56:59)
I like that you like a-
Got to sleep.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (57:01)
... little note, like a little alarm that just says, "Honey, switch off."
Yeah. I've been good with pregnancy. I'm trying to really honour that I need about two more hours than I used to need at night. But, yeah, I know definitely it's an easy thing. Literally, every week at daycare pick up I chat with some mom and she's like, "Oh my God, I just started watching something I'm sure and I shouldn't have and now I had everybody..." I'm like, "I know, I've been there." I really like you're not taking clients at the moment, and you're in this liminal space. Obviously, you've had birth to book, it's not a minor thing, but I know you're still very busy with your clinic. But, obviously, don't have space for new clients. But you mentioned, is it okay if we talk about the mentoring things that are going to come? Yeah, could we talk through that one?
Erin Lovell Verinder: (57:50)
Yeah, so I've got a wait list for clients, just for new clients. At this point, it's closed so we'll see when it will open up again. But, yeah, for the mentoring. So I've been doing mentoring one to one for, gosh, years and years and years, and I've loved it and I've learnt so much mentoring so many people. I really wanted to do that before writing a programme to just get this deep sense of what people are seeking, and they absolutely are themes that have come through to what I share and what people are going through. I'm in the midst of writing the mentoring programmes now in the hopes they'll be released. These things sometimes take time, but early 2022.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (58:37)
Yeah, there'll be two different strains of mentoring and how you can mentor with me. It's really exciting because it's the first programmes I'll have done. Though I've taught many groups over the years, this is my first group digital offering and I think it's going to be really exciting and new ways for me to work with people and reach more people and be able to support more people and spread myself into those different spaces. It's exciting, yes.
Yeah. Well, as a clinician, I could see a limited as to how many people you can see. But if you're teaching teachers and people that are working with people, then yeah, you're able to make a bigger impact.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (59:20)
Sure, I mean... Oh, go ahead. Sorry.
Well, I was just going to say that what are the qualifications? Is it for people who are trying to settle or studying or that what's your-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (59:23)
There'll be two different streams, so one is more for people who are studying or graduated, and the other one is more people who are curious to step onto the plant path. Because they have two very different ways to teach and audiences to speak to. I'm really, really passionate about doing my very best as well to shape, or whatever I could do to help support and shape someone into feeling like a really capable and strong presence as a practitioner because it's a big job. I think that we come out of our studies, particularly here in Australia, and it's... I don't know. I was flabbergasted at how I didn't learn so much at school and I felt really unprepared. Then it's like, "Oh my God, I'm working with people. Is this right? How do I do this? And how do I set up these basics elements of my business?"
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:00:22)
You really have to be like a savvy business owner as well. I've had different iterations of having a big healing space like my own multi-modality wellness space for many years and selling that successfully and running it. Then being a head practitioner at a busy, busy clinic in Sydney, and then being digital and writing books. I've had all these different iterations and it's given me a lot of perspective. But there's a lot of things I wished that I knew when I came out, and if I can help people in that way, I'm really excited to do that because it's a big job.
I guess like that, is that business aspect part of one of the streams? Like your-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:01:05)
Yeah, we're definitely weaving that in and I'm so lucky to have my husband who's like-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:01:13)
Mr. Noah, he's a virgo who is so amazing at... He really can show up with a skill set that I do not have and I am totally okay about not having that skillset. He's amazing at that. I sounded like I was talking myself out before, but I really I'm lacking much of that [crosstalk 01:01:31]. But, yeah, and he has a marketing background, so that's been really helpful to have his input into the course as well and how to run a business and the marketing aspect. It's huge, right? It is a huge element.
Yeah, I only know it from yoga, but like similarly you do a teacher training and they're like, "Okay, you're a teacher now." And you like, "well, and like how do I go to class? What do I..." That worked for a studio, so I had a silver platter, like I was very fortunate. But a lot of my friends never ended up teaching because that jump from education to actual practise was really difficult.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:02:11)
Really difficult and overwhelming.
Yeah, and I was lucky to have worked and then managed other businesses so I had a bit of a business brain. Like I often think, God, if I didn't have that context, I wouldn't be. I've done teacher trainings and we purposely included modules on business and how to... I'm just like at the end of the day, yes, it's all nice to talk about shockers and anatomy and whatever, but you have to also give someone some skills so they can go ahead and make a living out of these things.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:02:45)
Absolutely. There's a lot like there's a lot to it, and I'm in the depths of writing it right now. I'm like, "Is this six courses in one? Is this one course?" I'm just trying to figure that out right now, but it will come. Yeah, it's been so sweet, so many people are really excited about it. It's been an awesome feeling that people are keen to learn and soak it up. So, yeah, that's happening and I'm still really just sharing The Plant Clinic at this point as well. And that's about to come out in the States in a few weeks, so it has different international releases next year in the UK.
So you'll be on that trail for, what, another 12 months, at least on-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:03:26)
It feels like it, yeah. Look, I've done a lot of it, and hopefully, I can just be gentle with the next bits. That's why it's so nice when people write those messages and have a personal connection with the book because you [crosstalk 01:03:41]-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:03:42)
... you create it and you put it out and then you're like a little bit suspended in time of-
A bit between submitting it to the publisher and publishing it too. I remember authors always being like, "Oh my God." I'm like [crosstalk 01:03:54].
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:03:56)
At the end, you look at it so much you're like, "Is this any good? Is this the worst? I don't even know." It pains you but you get to that point like, you know what I mean, with it so much. You just put it out to the world and see what happens. It's been really sweet to receive lots of nice kind words about it, and it is really practical and it's meant to be there to help people in their everyday life truly.
Like, for me, it felt like almost like this thing that I'm going to raise my kid with this thing. She'll be able to take it when she leaves home. That sense of like I've got Stephanie Alexander's cookbook and you leave home, you should take that cookbook with you because its got all the basic stuff in it. I think that's something around that that's really nice.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:04:38)
That's so sweet.
Oh, yeah [crosstalk 01:04:41]. She's going to leave home with a whole bunch of crap, that poor kid.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:04:47)
I think red lights, I cleared that, [inaudible 01:04:49].
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:04:51)
I lost my train of thought there, unfortunately. The part from your mentoring programme when we birth dash, and you've obviously got your Instagram. Is there any other ways people can connect with you or reach out if they want to be in touch?
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:05:10)
Yeah, so the Instagram is where I'm sharing things most days, and then the newsletter, I'm getting way better at that. So you can go to my website, go to my website and sign up for the newsletter. That will actually be the first place that we'll release all of the mentoring details in the first round of mentoring intake as well. Yeah, just head there. Then there's more coming out, but there's a lot of the exciting thing happening, but I'm keeping it a little bit quiet.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:05:44)
Yeah, for sure, this is a big time of creativity for me and for Noah, and you're getting to work with him is just such a delight. Like we're just a little team doing our thing together. Yeah, so big things, big other things coming from us, very exciting things next year happening.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:06:03)
[crosstalk 01:06:03] official.
My question was going to be, I feel like the mom asking the woman who's just had a baby if she plans to have more children? But, anyway, yeah, are there more books brewing in you? Do you feel that, or are you like, "No, I'm pretty done for a while." Like wait five years before I had another baby.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:06:25)
Yeah, right. Well, every time I do a book, I'm like, "Oh, man, I'm not doing that again." But that's what moms say, right?
Yeah, [inaudible 01:06:36] is much the same.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:06:36)
Then you recall, "Yeah, I'm not doing that again."
Then you see a baby and you're like ooh.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:06:39)
Yeah, totally. Yes, there are definitely a future projects brewing. But I'm just being paced because we have some big, and very quiet right now, but big life changes happening and it's all very exciting. But I'm like, "Okay, how can I create more space for those things?" And books are so-
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:07:09)
... yeah, so consuming. For sure, but the answer is for sure, that's not my last book. Well, it's just it's those things are always brewing in me. I always have like a million and one ideas. We joke that we could be like Noah and I could be an ideas business [crosstalk 01:07:25] businesses. Like we'd be great at that. We don't necessarily want to do every business, but we have so many ideas. So I've always got so many ideas, it's just having the time and energy and capacity to bring them to the world.
Yeah, and I think that's a really important lesson. We are similar and to the point where we drive ourselves crazy sometimes. We've got a Slack channel called Imaginal Realm where it's like it doesn't matter what the idea is, it has to go in that and it has to stay there. Like once a month someone will go through it and see if anything is super relevant. But, otherwise, it just it's like, yes, you want to do all of these things but we have to be realistic about our capacity.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:08:09)
Not one of my special skills, so I'm learning as I get older.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:08:14)
I'm sure you'll [crosstalk 01:08:14]-
Once you get older.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:08:16)
I'm learning too. It's like that thing of like, "That's a really good idea, but do you want to do that every day?" Like Noah's gluten-free sourdough bakery idea.
Oh my God, every time I see that on Instagram I'm like Noah.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:08:31)
[crosstalk 01:08:31] and they're amazing, but he's like, "I could just be a gluten-free sourdough baker. I could just-"
And just get up at like 3:00 in the morning.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:08:39)
That's what I said to him, I was like, "Cool, babe. So then you'd have to get up at 3:00 in the morning and it would be a whole thing, and that would be your life." That's a beautiful job if, don't get me wrong but-
Yeah, thank you sourdough bakers.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:08:51)
Thank you so much for doing that. I'm so grateful for you. But is that what he wants to do?
[crosstalk 01:08:56] do that.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:08:57)
Yeah. Anyway, that's what I need. That's where we'd go [crosstalk 01:09:01].
Well, leaving it on that note, if you ever want an idea, you know who to contact. I'll link to all of your profiles in your newsletter set up everything in our show notes. So please check them out if you want to stay in touch with Erin. I want to thank you again for your time. I love talking herbalism with you. You're my favourite, so yeah. Again, I want to congratulate you on the book and we're going to have a copy to give away. If you don't win that, get out there and buy a copy. It's on, I saw it, on Booktopia in Australia and all over the place. When are you launching? Did you say in the US, because that's we have a pretty big listenership over there.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:09:41)
Yeah, November 16th, soon.
So it will probably be around when this is live, it should be done?
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:09:46)
[crosstalk 01:09:46] still wasn't around, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, amazing. All right, well, thank you again so much, Erin. Such a pleasure.
Erin Lovell Verinder: (01:09:52)