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Qi Cycles And The Dao with Jost Sauer - Acupuncturist (EP#48)

Today on the pod, we're joined by Jost Sauer. Jost Sauer is an author, acupuncturist, therapist and all round legendary character who has a deep passion for health and fitness. Jost's loves to share his ongoing discoveries about making lifestyle your best medicine through his books, blogs, articles, workshops and retreats.

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Today on the podcast, we're joined by Jost Sauer. Jost Sauer is an author, acupuncturist, therapist and all round legendary character who has a deep passion for health and fitness. Jost's loves to share his ongoing discoveries about making lifestyle your best medicine through his books, blogs, articles, workshops and retreats. Jost share's his experience using the principals of the Dao (Tao) to create health and vigour in the body, mind and spirit. Jump in folks, it's a fascinating, mind expanding ride.


Jost and Mason explore:

  • Yin and Yang theory.
  • The TCM body clock.
  • The matrix of the Qi cycle.
  • Jost's journey from drugs to the Dao.
  • The power of the Daoist (Taoist) practices.
  • The importance of integration when "enlightened" states are experienced.
  • Herbal alchemy and personal practice -  "I use my practice to correct symptoms, and I'd do the herbs to nourish my soul."


Who is Jost Sauer?

Jost (aka the lifestyle medicine man) was born in Germany in 1958 and is an ex-hippie, anarchist and drug runner turned acupuncturist, popular author and healthy lifestyle expert. His background includes competitive skiing, body-building, and ironman training, but after post-drug suicidal depression led him to martial arts and the study of TCM, he discovered the power of Qi, the cycle of Qi of Chinese medicine and that a natural rhythmic lifestyle holds the secrets to anti-ageing, health and success. Jost has been using lifestyle therapeutically for his clients for over 20 years. Jost is an expert in Chinese Medicine, which he lectured in for over a decade at the Australian College of Natural Medicine, he has been running successful health clinics since 1991, initially specialising in addiction recovery, and has treated tens of thousands of clients. His passion is sharing his ongoing discoveries about making lifestyle your best medicine through his books, blogs, articles, workshops and retreats. 



Jost Website

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Jost Youtube



Check Out The Transcript Below:


Mason: (00:00)

Jost, thanks so much for being here, man.


Jost: (00:01)

Thank you. It's amazing.


Mason: (00:02)

It's so good to meet you man. And it was so cool. Everyone here might be a little bit of a gap between the interviews, but I've just had Nick Perry on the podcast this morning and I know I've already told you, but he really wanted me to tell you he's a massive fan of yours. He was-


Jost: (00:15)

It's awesome to hear that.


Mason: (00:17)

Yeah. And I am as well. Let's jump in, in where you first started getting your fascination with Chinese medicine and Taoism. You were just 10 years old, were you saying?


Jost: (00:27)

Yes. It was back in 68. I was just 11 years old and I was fascinated into China. China was on my mind, on my radar, and the cultural revolution was big. So, I started writing letters to the Chinese committee and-


Mason: (00:41)

Well, what was the Chinese committee?


Jost: (00:44)

There was the public affairs committee in which we are running the cultural revolution. They were communists big time. Yeah. And I started expressing my interest and what an amazing philosophy that is. Obviously, I had no idea that cultural revolution and China's philosophy actually got nothing in common.


Mason: (00:58)



Jost: (00:59)

And I talked about Yin and Yang and all that kind of stuff and how fascinated I am by the magic of it.


Mason: (01:07)

How did you learn about Yin and Yang?


Jost: (01:08)

Not by these sort of interplay of forces. I was already fascinated by it, because I mean kung-fu started to evolve and came to the West. And so, the whole idea of Yin and Yang, sort of I saw those symbols already, but I didn't really know what it meant but I was drawn to it intuitively. So, some people would say, "It must be past life," whatever. "It most likely is the case, because why would you be interested in it?" Yeah?


Mason: (01:36)

Mm-hmm (affirmative).


Jost: (01:36)

Because I wasn't really interested in the mundane world. And I grew up in Germany, in Western Germany when post war economy was peaking and everything was about working hard to succeed to get the house and the cars and the prestige. And I said, "No, I don't want this."


Mason: (01:52)

Yeah. And you were young, when you got that. Right?


Jost: (01:55)

Yeah. I didn't want it. I just always already was dreaming myself being on top of the mind, the magic and the sorceress and evolving the forces from the cosmic and doing sort of martial art fairytales, like what you see this day in crouching tiger. This sort of stuff I dreamed about over and over. But every time I mentioned that to people, obviously everyone said, "Oh, you're just a dream." And so, I realised I can't really talk much about it. And, yeah. I mean, I was 14 and someone gave me hashish, very good quality from Amsterdam, because I lived only one hour away from Amsterdam.


Mason: (02:33)



Jost: (02:34)

So, I had drugs and then I realised, "Oh, it is a reality." So, obviously I started to explore the drugs. And I got into university, I studied social work, but I also love that psychedelic aspect more and more and more. I moved to Amsterdam when it was 19, 20. And so, I worked there for a while. I did my experience year in social work there in Amsterdam in the Milky Way.


Mason: (03:00)

[inaudible 00:03:00]. Nice.


Jost: (03:01)

The classic Milky Way where they sell hashish on the ground floor, and then they do counseling on the top floor. It's like the-


Mason: (03:08)

... the whole package.


Jost: (03:10)

Yeah, the whole package. Amsterdam in those days, whatever your interest is, there's a business.


Mason: (03:16)

Yeah, right.


Jost: (03:17)

Whatever you want, someone sells it to you.


Mason: (03:19)

Yeah. Okay.


Jost: (03:22)

And there were some straight people in those days, but they lived outside Amsterdam. And even the cops, the police, [inaudible 00:03:30] had red hair, henna in there hair, they had earrings. One day we were smoking hashish in the car in my really bumped out VW van and we were in the stop sign and smoking. We couldn't even look through the windows. And we heard a knock at the window. We put the window down, and there was a cop there. And he said, "Hey guys, you can't park here." "Okay, man." So, we kept driving in Amsterdam. So, everything went down. You just do it. So, you explore the psychedelic on every level. So, I really went with it and I wanted more of it. But, exploring more by drugs doesn't work. That was the big learning curve.


Mason: (04:15)

How long did it take you to learn that?


Jost: (04:17)

I was 22, 23 by the time I realised, "I can't get more on drugs."


Mason: (04:23)

Well, it's something to get. That's interesting to even ever be able to catch that and get that. Is that because you had an intention?


Jost: (04:30)

I was a drug dealer by then. I was organized. I always loved the entrepreneurship, so I had access to quantities big time, which is all in my books. I talk about it in my books.


Mason: (04:43)

Especially in high-


Jost: (04:43)

Higher and Higher, Drug Repair That Works, fully describe the stories.


Mason: (04:45)

Oh man, I'm really looking forward to reading this.


Jost: (04:48)

Yeah. It's full, it's incredible really. Great stories like dealing with Chinese people in Amsterdam, with opium and things like that. In those days it was pretty hardcore.


Mason: (04:58)

Did they have genuine Chinese opium den's?


Jost: (05:02)

Yeah. Full on. It had everything. You had an underground scene. So, it was like the Chinese were running the drugs. They were just like the Hell's Angels were running the drugs. The had Hell's Angels cafes. It was enormously multicultural. But for some reason, it all worked. They knew their territory and everyone kept sort of by the boundaries very well.


Mason: (05:26)

Yeah. Okay.


Jost: (05:27)

But because I had access to so many drugs, I could have what I wanted. And I had access to really the best mescaline. I mean, I'm talking to serious quality in those days, and LSD as much as I want. I actually came to Australia with a bottle of LSD liquid. And I actually took it with me to Nimbin in 1981-


Mason: (05:49)

And became the king of the town.


Jost: (05:50)

I was in the pub one day, in the middle of Nimbin.


Mason: (05:55)



Jost: (05:56)

We're talking '81 Friday night pub. And there was a guy, I was beside this guy at the counter. And I asked him, "Do you want some LSD liquid?" And he looked at me if asking me a thirsty man in the desert, "Do you want some water?"


Mason: (06:09)

Yeah, right.


Jost: (06:11)

And I said, "Yeah, of course." So, I gave him two drops in the scooner. And within half an hour, he was just like going all over the place. It was serious stuff.


Mason: (06:20)

That was good.


Jost: (06:20)

Yeah. The whole pub suddenly knew, there's this German guy who's got a bottle of LSD liquid, the real thing. So, there were 50 people in the pub, so I put everyone two drops in. The whole pub, off their face. So, some people-


Mason: (06:37)

And Nimbin has never been the same again.


Jost: (06:38)

... have never had that quality.


Mason: (06:39)

Yeah, right.


Jost: (06:40)

Because, we told them serious quality. It was pure. Three drops would've burnt to your brain. So, I made sure everyone only two drops. But a lot of people, in that center of Nimbin, they couldn't... they were going in circles and couldn't hack it. It was just too much.


Mason: (06:56)

Who are you?


Jost: (07:01)

So, I had an incredible introduction to Nimbin, because within three weeks the whole bottle went that night and everybody knew me. But I lived in Nimbin for the whole year, and I survived on jobs. One day I went to the job vacancy board, end up with a job there. And there was helping the artist to upgrade the murals, all the pictures of Nimbin.


Mason: (07:26)

Oh, nice.


Jost: (07:26)

And I got this beautiful job, for six months paid, to, to work on the murals and all those pictures.


Mason: (07:32)



Jost: (07:33)

And people came up, "How did you get the job?"


Mason: (07:36)



Jost: (07:36)

I said, "I went to the job vacancy board." There was only one job on that job vacancy board in 20 years.


Mason: (07:45)

I mean, there's some kind of flow there.


Jost: (07:47)

Yeah, it's sort of faith, yeah?


Mason: (07:48)

Yeah. Obviously, there's some kind of faith. I mean, like some kind of, you bring in the lady sky dancer kind of energy as well. You would have been like, yeah, you're cruising on some kind of etheric reality.


Jost: (07:58)



Mason: (07:59)

And so, the whole time, did you maintain your interest in Chinese medicine and Taoism during this?


Jost: (08:05)

Yes. All along. Because, always when I was doing the drugs, it always is working with Yin and Yang symbol that came to me all the time.


Mason: (08:12)

In artistry?


Jost: (08:13)

Yeah, in artistry. Yeah. I just saw those symbols all the time. And I did the Chinese philosophy. Every poetry I could get, I was putting down. I was looking for the Chinese artists books. Obviously, when I lived in Nimbin, I lived in [inaudible 00:08:28] and I lived with someone who introduced me to the macrobiotic cooking, the Chinese cooking. And then, I learned about Tai chi, I learned about Qigong. I mean, I came from Amsterdam heavy on drugs, addicted to speed and every possible drug known to man, I came to Nimbin and I got off drugs.


Mason: (08:50)

Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's very interesting.


Jost: (08:50)

So, I went to Nimbin to get off drugs.


Mason: (08:52)



Jost: (08:54)

And, so actually I didn't do much drugs in Nimbin.


Mason: (08:57)

What was it about where you were at?


Jost: (08:59)

Because, I arrived really broken from the drugs, because I tried to get the Tao on drugs.


Mason: (09:05)



Jost: (09:06)

I tried to reach that consciousness on drugs. I tried to reach it. And because I had access to as many drugs as I wanted, there was no limitations to how much I could explore. And I realised very quickly, it will not work. I realised by then, "Okay, it shows me what I need and what I want, but it will not deliver."


Mason: (09:29)

And so, okay, let's talk about that peak experience, because that's something that comes up again and again. How do you see the relevance of using these psychedelics now in the search for the Tao. And then there's one thing I've said there, there's a bit of contradiction there in terms of searching for the Tao in the first place.


Jost: (09:50)

I've done the drug, so I can't really judge drugs. So, it would be hypocritical. My personal experience is you don't need the drugs to find it.


Mason: (09:59)

Yeah, right.


Jost: (10:01)

I actually haven't done drugs for over 35 years. Not because I shouldn't have drugs, it's because I write books about it. I actually don't want, because it just takes me backwards not forwards. So, because I studied under that Chinese master, I studied in all kinds of Chinese martial art practices and meditation practices and I've explored really good revenues with them, with all kinds of avenues with masters I met in my time. And I was explored to cosmic. I was introduced to cosmic consciousness via techniques. And that took me further as on the drugs. I couldn't go further. Then, I met those techniques, and in particular with under [inaudible 00:10:40], who run the transcendental meditation with the Maharishi in the '60s. I met him and he was my main... the main guru I followed. And he was a friend of Osho. We're talking back obviously 25, 30 years when it all started. And so, he introduced me to the cosmic consciousness via a meditation technique that took the next level from the transcendental meditation to the spontaneous expression that the transcendental meditation only you could do in a contained form by sitting down.


Mason: (11:11)



Jost: (11:11)

So, they had this big fall out in the '60s. [inaudible 00:11:16]... that you actually need to learn, make the body stand up to express your energies more effectively so you can actually open up all the [inaudible 00:11:22] channel and all the other points. So, the water [inaudible 00:11:25] points that all lead up to the brain to hold them up for this aspect of the cosmic consciousness that's all within us. According to my personal experience in having studied both modalities, like the cosmic consciousness of walking by the meditation and having done LSD and mescaline and etc, and all the mushrooms, there start on the same pathways. There start there. But, the technique goes further, simply because when you take a drug, you've got a chemical running through your system and it directs you what to do. Whereas, if you don't have a chemical, you're spontaneous. You can take it to a level where you're not subject to the chemical.


Jost: (12:08)

So, the chemical can take you to say to step eight, but it may leave you at step eight. So, you start at step one, bang straight to step eight. It can do that within 20 minutes, but then the chemical may leave you there, because you got a software now running through your system.


Mason: (12:26)

Well, this is the whole nature of having a complete system that through antiquity right has been proven and in its holistic nature can work in moving a human forward verse the Western what we do is we'll take one particular meditation technique out of a very advanced system, and then apply that, and then sit there excessively with it. And you see like with transcendental meditation, right?


Jost: (12:46)



Mason: (12:47)

So, how did you complete the system? Obviously, you've just moved through different techniques and adopted what you need out of them. Is that something that just happened for you through your will or intention or subconsciously? Or, did you purposely go and look for that?


Jost: (13:01)

Because, I want more.


Mason: (13:02)

Yeah. Okay.


Jost: (13:04)

I want more. I'm the classic definition of an addict. I want more.


Mason: (13:06)

Does that still motivate you?


Jost: (13:10)

I search.


Mason: (13:11)

Are you still searching, or is that-


Jost: (13:14)

I've got really good techniques now, because I'm 61 years old. So, I've obviously have found my ways, my techniques I can work with. But there are those techniques I work with, firstly of all this, the cosmic consciousness via the meditation technique derived from the Vedas, which is the VC environment cosmic meditation. Which Is spontaneous expression. So that is the equivalent in the Taoist tradition, is the yuanyou meditation, the ecstatic travel. So, that's spontaneous. But then, I also study the lineage of the Tai Chi, of the Chen family. So, the Chen family, has got an enormous, powerful way to get to your right up to the top, but it's way of the body.


Mason: (14:01)

Who's the Chen family?


Jost: (14:02)

The Chen family started from the Chen village. They're the ones who started Tai chi in the 1600s.


Mason: (14:07)

Wow. Okay.


Jost: (14:09)

We're talking 1640 when the general in that Chen village introduced the first form that is now in the West, known as Tai chi. It wasn't martial art, but he took it from the Buddhist and from the Taoist. So, there's a taoist cultivation principle in there, the Buddhist transcendence and the ability to generate your energy so you can fight and be a victor, so you can win. So, it's martial art. So, it's a combination of a longevity of strengths, of power, martial art, but also transcendence way, the Buddhist view. And so, that form was fiercely guarded for 400 years by the Chen family. Because in those days, when you develop a form, you don't show others, because it's your livelihood of survival. Because, your form gives you the strengths over others. Which is why in the 1800s, all the bodyguards for the caravans would travel the country and to protect the cars off the bandits, they used Chen fighters that are cheap people from the Chen village, because they were the best fighters.


Jost: (15:22)

And so, the Chen Tai Chi utilizes this opening up the cosmic consciousness in a massive, in an extremely grounded way. So, you become very, very solid. Really so solid, you can't move a Chen fighter. It's just bang, you're solid like a pyramid. You just root yourself into the ground. You're trying to move like a Chen fighter, it's not possible. You can take a big Mack, truck, not possible. And they're doing all kinds of experiments and presentations and demonstrations on YouTube, where those 10 fighters can't be moved by 100 people. So, you developed this enormous solidity, this enormous power that is incredible. And it's all in the body.


Mason: (16:05)



Jost: (16:05)

And there's always the Jing. And the Jing, then to the Shen, and then obviously the Qi. And/or Jing, Qi, Shen, whichever way you want to put first, but it's works via what we've given. Because, the strengths, the power that the Chen family tapped into and developed over the hundreds of years, based on the Taoist principle, but is now available to people. That allows them to utilize this in order to deal with obstacles in life, in order to become strong, in order to become fit.


Jost: (16:35)

So, what I learned with my cosmic consciousness techniques, especially with my hippie life and things like that back in the... 40 years ago-


Mason: (16:42)

Yeah. You got to really explore.


Jost: (16:43)

Yeah. You go right out there, but not grounded.


Mason: (16:49)

Yeah. That sounds familiar.


Jost: (16:51)

So, I went right out there. So, when I was 22, 21, 19 with all the drugs, I was just so out there. I could see the whole creation of the universe. I was as ready to tell God what to do.


Mason: (17:04)

Yeah. I hear you. Highly existential.


Jost: (17:09)



Mason: (17:09)



Jost: (17:11)

So out there, and understanding everything. I even could've looked at a quantum mechanics formula and, "Yeah. I get this." It's unbelievable.


Mason: (17:23)

Well, that's like there is a somewhat reality to whether you can intellectually ground in and an apply something being tapped into that source field where all information comes from.


Jost: (17:34)

Yeah, that's it. You tap into it. It's like, it's all there. And the drugs take you there, but they don't teach you how you get there, and they don't tell you and they don't teach you how to return. Yes.


Mason: (17:46)

And then, how to take any kind of any kind of... how to realise and form anything in reality with what you've tapped into as well.


Jost: (17:56)

Yeah. It's called to integrate it.


Mason: (17:57)



Jost: (17:58)

And most importantly, how to tell others what it is. You can't communicate with others.


Mason: (18:03)



Jost: (18:03)

So, I went right out there and I realized very quickly when I expressed my position, which was totally removed from the local point that other people were operating on. If I then reflected my perception of reality from my point of view, the people at the local point couldn't find... they couldn't get me. And as I more and more realized, it's not of any use.


Mason: (18:31)

That's a harrowing realization when you find that no longer... that's not useful.


Jost: (18:37)

Yeah. So you see it, but you don't know what to do with that.


Mason: (18:40)

Yeah. Okay.


Jost: (18:41)



Mason: (18:42)

And so, that was a catalyst for you whenever you want more. You got frustrated.


Jost: (18:45)

First of all, it made me angry.


Mason: (18:46)

Yeah. Well, was that because you've done so much? You've done so much work and you'd realized so much and yet you couldn't... Was that what was frustrating?


Jost: (18:54)

Yeah. First of all, what happened to you, first, I couldn't express. I could say, but I couldn't express it suitably nor effectively.


Mason: (19:01)

Yeah. [inaudible 00:19:02], I kind of get that when you're like, "Hey, I experienced this." And people go, "Oh yeah, no, I know what you mean." You're like, "No, you don't." And that frustration that you can't actually communicate who you are genuinely as a person, right? You don't have the stamina, or the... You don't have the ability to slow down and consciously, consistently communicate who you are with the world, right? You need to do everything right-


Jost: (19:28)

Not slow, not consistent, all over the place, because obviously that what held my perception together is Yin. So, whatever I perceived, it didn't have a connection. For me, it was obvious, but for others who are trying to observe, they couldn't follow. That's classified as psychosis.


Mason: (19:49)

Yeah, absolutely.


Jost: (19:50)

So, I developed all kinds of various levels of psychosis. Which was very interesting once again, because by being right out there and actually unable to integrate, you get an incredible insight into how society works, because you an outsider looking in, Timothy Leary. Yeah? So, suddenly I was out there watching in, but couldn't go in. And first of all that made me angry, because if the organism can't express itself, that other people want to listen to and follow, the Yang rises. That means the Yang and the liver rises, and it's anger. So, which means in those days it translated, I became an anarchist. So, from the hippie, I became an anarchist. Now, I become angry with society, so I started to blame society.


Mason: (20:40)

Which is the classic pattern.


Jost: (20:41)

Yeah. I told people, "Society is fucked. We are going to fucking blow this all up."


Mason: (20:45)

Well, that's somewhat even the, as you come back down, it's almost a search for identity. You need something to oppose in order to get some formation for yourself, right? And who you are and what you stand for.


Jost: (20:57)

Yeah, because you need to be integrated.


Mason: (21:00)



Jost: (21:00)

The thing is we, this is the thing as being in this physical form of being here in this world is we need to be working with others. At the soul, we are united with everyone. But when we incarnate into this world, we feel separation. And then, we open up with drugs. We're going to back to the cosmic consciousness, where everything's united. But now, I can't integrate that. Which is why it made me angry. And everyone that was with me in my times, or my hippy buddies, we all became anarchist.


Jost: (21:31)

So, we started getting very violent with these cops and demonstrations. And yeah, it became dark. It became very, very dark. And so, it was more a means of trying to make sense of myself, as you said. It's right. And then, I had this opportunity back in, we're talking... just in the turn of 1980 to 1981, I had an opportunity to escape, because by that time the police was after me, the army was after me, the drug bust went bad, the drug dealers were after me, the bikers were after me. It was a little too much.


Mason: (22:07)

That screw your head just a little bit too much.


Jost: (22:10)

So, I lived illegal already in the underground. But if the bikers are also after you, it's like, "Get out."


Mason: (22:19)

That's when it's real. Yeah.


Jost: (22:21)

And, on this Sunday night, someone offered me to go to Australia on a plane to be a translator. And within three days, I was on the plane. I had no idea what I was doing. This is one of the things you go with the flow. So, I landed in Sydney in 1981, and I landed... So, that was in Sydney. And obviously, in those days the plane flew four days. And four days in a plane as a drug user, my God, you'd have to take a lot of drugs with you. Yeah? So, obviously I had packs of, stacks of gear with me. When I arrived in Sydney, I realized that I had a big block of Lebanese hash in my pocket I forgot to smoke. And when I was in the queue, I thought, "I'd better go to the toilet to destroy the evidence." Because I thought, "If they're going to find this, it's not a good way to start my journey in Australia." Obviously I looked very suspicious. Long hair, bare feet, green pants, purple jacket. I didn't look quite normal.


Mason: (23:17)

Yeah. The whole look, yeah.


Jost: (23:21)

So, I went off to the toilet to destroy the evidence, but a custom officer followed me. And I thought, "Oh shit, I can't destroy it." And I thought, "Okay, maybe they haven't noticed me. Maybe everything's got to be fine." So, I got to the custom, to the queue, and obviously straight they took me into the room and searched everything. And they found the hashish. And they said, "What's this?" And I said, "Look, I forgot to smoke it." And they looked very, very puzzled and the found all the amphetamine pills, I had a lot of drugs with me. And they said, "What's this?" And I said, "I'm a junkie. I need it to stay calm." They found the bottle with the LSD liquid which was in a nose drop bottle. This guy says, "Nose drop." So, they didn't look at that. They didn't taste it for some lucky reason. And then they told me to fuck off. And I thought, "gee this is a very rude country."


Mason: (24:10)



Jost: (24:11)

It was like, Australia, my God, different to Amsterdam and Germany where they don't swear. And I said, "Where should I go?" And they looked at me and said, "You go to Nimbin."


Mason: (24:21)

No way.


Jost: (24:23)

So, I've never heard of Nimbin. So, I got out of the custom, I asked him, "Can I get my hashish back? And they said, "No, fuck off." So, for some reason I didn't get thrown in jail. Nothing. One of those weird stories. It wasn't that much in hindsight, it was only about five grams. But it was good block of beautiful Lebanese red hashish. And anyway, I got out of the airport and hitchhiked north, for Nimbin. And I arrived. I'll never forget that. All the cars until Lismore looked ordinary.


Mason: (24:59)



Jost: (25:00)

Then hitchhiking from Lismore to Nimbin, everything changed. Cars stopping with three wheels and three different wheels and the goat in the back and weird looking people. I said, "This is my world."


Mason: (25:12)

Yeah, I hear you. All right. So then you land and... Okay. So, we've kind of almost gone from that, from the void comes the one, the Tao, and then the two, the Yin and Yang.


Jost: (25:22)

Yes, correct.


Mason: (25:23)

So, the Yin and Yang is a continuing concept for you and obviously a reality and continues to be today. Where have you from that period to now, how have you related to Yin and Yang in life? And I know this is a huge conversation, but especially for people listening who haven't quite understood the realities and intricacies and all of Yin and Yang dominating and being the reality of their body and the universe, where are you now in terms of communicating in Yin Yang in your relationship with it?


Jost: (25:56)

Yeah. Obviously, I understand that everyone of us is on a journey here. And obviously in Chin... In the taoist philosophy, they call it, your contract with heaven. So, the highest form of medicine in Chinese Medicine is nourishing your destiny. Because I've been using Chinese Medicine for 30 years now, and as a registered acupuncturist I obviously work with all kinds of people from all different walks of life, but I never ever used the herbs to treat a symptom. I always identify the person's destiny first.


Mason: (26:36)

Dude, yeah. Speaking our language.


Jost: (26:38)

Yeah. Because, everyone, it's just like the universe. Everything is created with a purpose, and that's the Tao. The Tao runs everything. So, we know this purpose, but not so much on conscious level we can feel it, but very, very difficult to put into words. And so, Yin and Yang, the fluctuation between the polar forces guides me along this journey. That means I get drawn to an absolute. Then, I realize it's not me, but it shoots me to the next absolute, which is the opposite. And then, it's not me either, then it shoots me to the next absolute. So, it's like a process. So, between Yin and Yang.


Jost: (27:16)

So, obviously for me it was like, first of all, getting involved with the cultural evolution back in '68 when I realized it had nothing to do with Taoism. And so, I was always exposed to communism. Then, I actually realized, I found the real modality, which is why the Tao isn't, but that took me to the drugs. The drugs then took me to the anarchism, to violence and pain, which then led me to the realization it's within. And that led me to the meditation, which, so that was the Yin aspect. And then from the Yin aspect, I realized I need to strengthen myself, otherwise I can't express what I see. So, if I'm weak and I can't fulfill my destiny. So, in order to fulfill my destiny, in order to live my destiny, I have to go Yang. And that took me to Chinese martial art. And Chinese martial art, well, we're talking now 35 years ago, my first exposure was kung-fu. And I practiced very hard.


Jost: (28:13)

And that then led me to the Chen family, the Chen Tai Chi, which is not the Tai chi that you see people do in parks. You got to look that up on YouTube, Chen Tai chi, C-H-E-N, the origin Tai Chi. It's a different world. It's very, very intense, very powerful, incredibly expressive, but it's hard to learn. It's really hard on your body. You have to work very hard. So, from the Yin, the hippie aspect of going to the cosmic consciousness, which is like without the effort, I then was taken to the Yang with a lot of effort. So, for me, the Yin Yang is always the mix between receiving, perception and having a mental idea, "oh gee I love this." And then the yang, the effort to integrate that. So, which is Gongfu, effort over time. That's the classic translation of Kung-Fu, effort over time.


Jost: (29:09)

So, that means I constantly get the idea what I want, the vision, the beauty via poetry or via music or via meditation or even via sexual practices, I get the idea, but then the Yang via the effort, I moved towards it. So, this is one thing that I've never really discovered in the Western world, the perfect blend between your vision, your idea and the effort. So, in the West, we see success strategies, but they don't integrate with your heart so much. Because in order to integrate your heart, you need to feel it. So, now you need a practice that actually takes you into feeling. And so, this is where meditation, cosmic consciousness meditation come in too. That's where sexual practices come in. That's alchemy. So, I need to feel it, because if I put into word what I think my destiny is, then it's concept. Then, it's most likely based on a conditioning and an upbringing from a previous time or parents or I follow security principles. It's based on all kinds of other values. It's interfered with values.


Jost: (30:16)

But if I go alchemically into it, that means via practice, and the Tao is alchemic. Alchemy is the way of the body. So, by working with the body, I then can actually feel it. And once I feel it, I then moved towards it. And that feeling is what they call the Yuanyu, is the ecstatic travel. So, that's where the drugs come into. So, the drugs can show you, but unless you put the effort in, the Gongfu, which is the Yang, it will not work. So, to me that's the Yin and Yang.


Mason: (30:49)

Yeah. And then almost, the whole idea behind the drugs and the plant medicines is you become externally reliant on something to be able to show you that vision, which is innately in there rather than a daily practice being... that tune in and feel.


Jost: (31:03)

Yes. In Chinese medicine we always say, "Don't think, feel."


Mason: (31:09)



Jost: (31:10)

The whole training and the Tai Chi, "Don't think, feel." So, we've constantly like every morning and we go first into, into feeling. So, I never start the day with thinking. So, this is where I work with Yin and Yang, because the thinking takes me into the Yin not into the Yang. And so, I need to start the day with going into Yang first. And that means I'm not thinking. So, I'm actually moving. So, of course when we wake up, we want to think about all kinds of stuff, but the idea is to shut up. I spend a lot of time in, having studied under the masters, and personally direct the training under them. It was every morning. You just don't think.


Mason: (31:53)



Jost: (31:54)

You don't think.


Mason: (31:54)

Which is the practice.


Jost: (31:56)

Yeah. Which I explained in that book Clock on to Health in the large intestine chapter. Because, when we wake up, the energy, you see the Tao is very, very intelligent. Yeah? The Tao has given us everything what we need in order to fulfill our destiny. But in order to find our destiny, first of all, we need to feel not think.


Mason: (32:21)



Jost: (32:21)



Mason: (32:22)



Jost: (32:22)

And in order to feel, not think, the Tao has given us the uniform, and the Qi starts with Large Intestine and Lung, Lung and Large Intestine. And the Large Intestine is the organ that lets go off negative thinking.


Mason: (32:38)



Jost: (32:39)

So, every morning we got the opportunity to let go of thinking. Because, forgetfulness is the highest form in Taoism, the art of forgetting. But what they mean with the art of forgetting is not to think about it, to feel. But that's something you can't put into words. You try to do, and I would say we tried to do, but you can't really do it. Because, I wake up and I think about a certain area. I'll wake up immediately and think about my books, my business, what I need doing, but I can't make sense of my thoughts. Obviously, I can make sense of my thoughts, but they don't suit me. So, as soon as I get up and go into my practice, I go into feeling. Large intestine takes over, and then it delegates my thoughts into the direction that they need to go, so they're not a hindrance to me.


Mason: (33:31)



Jost: (33:31)

So, that's where the Tai Chi goes into. That's why it's a martial art. When you go in front of an opponent and you start thinking, you get wrecked. It has to be spontaneous. Because, if you don't think, then you've got the highest response. And then it's always correct, because then you don't have an opinion about your opponent, nor do you have a judgment, nor do you have a feeling about any criteria. So, you are in a perfect state of neutrality.


Mason: (34:07)

And you're in reality.


Jost: (34:09)

Yes. You are. You're real there, you're right at the moment. And you actually look at that person as what the person is, not what you think it is. So, you're not using judgment, you're not using analysis. And then, you realize there's no need to fight that person anyway.


Mason: (34:25)



Jost: (34:25)

which is why Tai Chi, this is the interesting thing, it's so Yang, but it takes you so Yin.


Mason: (34:33)

In original. You're talking about original Tai Chi.


Jost: (34:35)

Yeah. They are the most peaceful people I've ever met. It's makes you totally peaceful, because you actually don't see the point to fight. But, you are a little better. You can immediately change the situation, but there is no interest.


Mason: (34:51)

Well, that's the irony and the cosmic giggle of the universe, right?


Jost: (34:56)

Yeah. That's the Yin and Yang. So, you are in the state of Yin, but you're very Yang. When you meet those masters, they're so compassionate. They don't have an issue with you. They don't judge you. It doesn't matter what you do. Whatever habits you have, it's irrelevant, because there's not thinking. It's pure feeling. It's just like goes back to the old days when people met in the park and hit a few joints. You just feel with each other.


Mason: (35:21)



Jost: (35:21)



Mason: (35:22)

Yeah. That's the peak experience to what-


Jost: (35:24)

Yeah, the peak experience, just feel with each other. In the morning have a joint, the day is your friend. Yeah? So, it's like all this hippie festivals I went into. Have a joint and straight away you communicate what you're feeling not thinking.


Mason: (35:36)

And then having the, I don't know whether it's the practice or the ability or just getting to the point where you're so frustrated that you need to constantly go to something external to get that experience, even just going and having the intention. This is why I want to talk about the day plans and clock...


Jost: (35:52)



Mason: (35:52)

Because, for me that fits, that slides into the lifestyle design based on the reality of how Qi transforms in our body. And it's obviously a very ancient system. It's one I feel has become, if you look at the TCM body clock and the organ clock, it's become something that... everyone's like, "Oh yeah, no, I've seen that before. This times that, this times that," and there's this like breadth of awareness but not that much depth of actually being to able to know what's going on in our organs at that time.


Jost: (36:23)



Mason: (36:24)

But, what I'm thinking is just like, with that having a joint in the morning with mates and just getting into that connection, then being able to go like those masters you're talking about at 80, at 90 years old, "What does my whole life and my lifestyle and my practice needs to look like in order to embody that, and not only feel this level of connection and compassion and love for everyone, but be transcending even what I'm feeling here on this substance and embody that and then share that with the world," that takes serious consideration. And that's kind of what I feel, for me, that's what I kind of get in... I've gone through Clock On. I've got my copy at home, and been going through it. You know what I mean?


Mason: (37:04)

Like, "Yeah, I'm going to really consider this organ clock more than I have in the past and really give this a few years to permeate me and allow me to understand [inaudible 00:37:13], allow me to understand my own Qi and my own wu-xing five element phase transformation. That's what I see as the point of this, is designing a day where we can tonify from the two things, the three things, the Jing, Qi, Shen, so that then we can do exactly what you're saying in terms of being able to embody these things. So, I don't know if that's got a correct assessment, but that's been my takeaway so far. But, is that kind of fair in to what the intention is behind clocking on to this?


Jost: (37:47)

Yeah. What happens is that, okay, in a Taoist tradition, our information of who we are, our true nature is energetic.


Mason: (37:56)



Jost: (37:56)

And the structure is, of our nature, is structured by meridian systems. So, before we incarnate in this physical form, we are meridians. And we actually, the energy organs exist before we incarnate.


Mason: (38:12)

And the embryology is kind of proving that as well, right?


Jost: (38:17)

Yeah. In Chinese medicine, we have an energy organ and a physical organ. Which is why scholars all over the world, the academic agreement is, "Let me talk Chinese, spleen. We have to write the spleen in upper cases." So, when we talk spleen in Chinese Medicine, we have spleen and Spleen. The upper case spleen is different to the lower case spleen. The lower case spleen resembles Western medicine. The upper case spleen is Chinese medicine. And Chinese medicine has identified that this energy organ exist before we are born in physical form, and it will stay with us when we leave.


Mason: (38:59)

And it's referring more so to the Qi.


Jost: (39:03)

It's an energy. So, what happens is that each... in order to structure this body, in order to structure the soul, which is a complex entity anyway, we are really complex beings. And, I mean, the whole of creation is very complex. But in order to hold this unity together, it's run by 12 organ systems. And that's why the 12 [inaudible 00:39:23] universe. 12 hours in the day, 12 months in a year. And the Chinese and Western philosophers agreed on the 12th. 12 months and 12 years, because they work with the yearly cycles and monthly cycles. And 12 hours in the day, by two makes it 24 hours. So, it's all held together by time. And as quantum mechanics has identified, space is in time. So, in order for the physical to exist, first of all it needs time. So, as soon as you take time out of the equation, the physical collapses. It can't exist.


Mason: (39:57)



Jost: (39:57)

So, what it means to be in the physical world rather than the spiritual world is, here in the physical world, we have time, in a spiritual world, we don't have time. So, when this organ system now goes into the physical system, now it's regulated by time. And the Taoist already tapped into that 5,000 years ago for some reason. Without them having a perception of a clock, they knew that it's time that holds it all together. Which is why so many quantum mechanics look at Chinese Medicine, which is why Niels Bohr, used the Yin Yang, as his logo as a symbol, when he did his coat of arms.


Mason: (40:38)

Yeah. Right.


Jost: (40:39)

And so, it's all done. If you put it up on internet, it all comes up. Niels Bohr, Yin and Yang, coat of arms. Because, he understood what quantum mechanics is trying to say. The Tao has already tapped into it many thousands of years before them. And I realized that you'd never be able to put two things together, as Heisenberg uncertainty principle says, "One cannot know the velocity of a particle and not the direction of the particle at the same time." So, you cannot be Yin and then Yang. It's always happening at the same time. So, it's Yin and Yang. That's why it never says anywhere, Yin or Yang.


Mason: (41:19)

So, is this the concept that they don't, they cannot exist without each other?


Jost: (41:23)

Yes. But it never is, like you can't understand who you are and the direction at the same time. Which is why thinking about your destiny will never work. It's based on the uncertainty principle, Heisenberg uncertainty. So, "One cannot know the velocity of the particle and at the same time know the direction of the particle." So, you can't know who you are and know the direction you go by knowing, you need to feel it. Because then, Yin and Yang becomes one.


Jost: (41:48)

So, when people do drugs, Yin and Yang become one. When we observe, academically or intellectually a situation, it's a Yin or Yang. But once you take a joint, it's all one. Which is why when you're with people, it becomes like, you feel with each other on a... You know each other.


Mason: (42:09)



Jost: (42:09)

You can go into other experience that, you can go with people you don't speak their language and you smoke hashish and you suddenly connect, unite. Yeah?


Mason: (42:18)

Mm-hmm (affirmative).


Jost: (42:19)

So, there's a lot going on. So, Yin and Yang is really exemplifying what that all is. And the Qi cycle put the whole complexity together via time. Because if you take time out of the equation, it will collapse. These days, people live, make up their own times, which is why they got all kinds of symptoms.


Mason: (42:39)



Jost: (42:40)

5:00 AM is different to 12:00 PM. 12:00 PM is different to 5:00 PM. And it has got a totally different influence on your body. If it has a different influence on your body, that means there's a totally different velocity and a different direction. It means there's a different feeling. So, how you feel at 5:00 AM is different to how you feel at 5:00 PM, but that feeling is essentially in order to understand who you are.


Jost: (43:02)

So, the Qi cycle gives you the matrix of how to tap into these incredible complex information that your soul is, structured via the meridians and the 12 energy organs. So, each energy organ has got a very specific information. And the Taoists called it the orbs. The orb of the Spleen, which is the heavenly messenger. So, each organ has got a very specific information about who you are as your soul. There's all your akashic record is in each of the organs. You can tap into anything. So, the Spleen knows exactly when it comes about your intellect. Your Kidney knows everything about who you are in terms of your willpower. The Liver knows exactly when it comes in terms of your direction. But, putting that into words is not possible. So, we need to feel it. Feel, don't think.


Jost: (43:52)

So, by living the Qi cycle, we tap into this different time zones, which then creates a sink into this energy organ. And now, it's almost like you open up a gateway. And every two hours, there's a different gateway to perceive a different perception about who you are, what you're feeling. If you integrate that now with action, which is doing, which is now you give the particle its direction, first of all, when you zone in to the time zone, it's a velocity. Now, you give it its direction by doing according to what it needs to be done at this time. You actually feel what you're supposed to be doing.


Mason: (44:31)



Jost: (44:32)

It's absolutely magic. So, suddenly life gets mystical and rather than mundane.


Mason: (44:40)

I like that. I can do a little bit more mystical. And quite often something that's occurring in the West, is reverse in the East, is the East is, it is a reality and a fabric of society that... Let's just make it really obvious one. Qi exists, verse in the West where something that... sometimes just even talking about the Qi cycle to someone off the street, it's known as a bit of a, it's interesting like a mystical Chinese concept, a Chinese medicine concept. And quite often, I'm just curious as to your experience and really... And likewise, we're educating people about the reality of Qi and Taoist theory, so I can relate. But, how are you going about teaching people about this Qi cycle to Western reductionist minds that almost need to go like, "well, what are you talking about? What?" What is the Qi?"


Jost: (45:39)

It's very, very simple. That's why I use archetypes in my book Clock on. I don't talk about the large intestine Qi. I talk about the cleaner. Okay. What I'm saying here is, you can't put into words what Qi is.


Mason: (45:51)



Jost: (45:52)

Because the definition of Qi is information, energy and consciousness. Quantum physics can measure the impact consciousness has on matter, but it can't measure consciousness. So, you will never be able to put Qi into words. So, in China, over the thousands of years, everyone has developed an association with Qi. So, you go into a village and you talk with an 80 year old man, and it's, "Oh, the Qi is very good here." The association is on common ground. Everyone has got no association with that word. In the Western world, there's not association with that word yet. So, when you talk to someone Qi, if they have an association, it's most likely so removed from what it is, because they don't have the experience in it yet. It will take a few generations for us to actually have an association.


Jost: (46:40)

So, at this stage, in the Western world, most people don't have enough association in their unconscious about the word Qi. So, when they hear the word Qi, they don't know what to associate with it. So, it goes mental. So, once you've got mental there, it's not Qi.


Mason: (46:56)

Yeah. I mean, once you try to intellectualize the concept-


Jost: (46:59)

You can't. Niels Bohr already realized you can't put it into words. The quantum mechanics already understood it's not possible, because you've got consciousness. Once you gone into consciousness, you've got all kinds of dilemmas, because you get the double slit experiment, where the particle goes through both slits at the same time, but only one particle arrives at the wall. And kind of like quantum mechanics full of paradox. And that's Chinese Medicine. So, when you talk Qi, you're always with a paradox, because you've got the Yin and Yang at the same time. But when you talk, it's Yin or Yang.


Jost: (47:30)

So, you will never be able to put Yin and Yang and Qi into words. But, because I've worked with so many people and I did so many talks in my time, I understand the dilemma of, "okay, how can you create an association in people?" Which is why this book, Clock on, I worked with, "okay, what is an association?" Instead of me talking about large intestine Qi, I talk about the cleaner. Instead of talking about the Spleen, the energy Spleen, I talk about the builder. Instead of talking about the Small Intestine Qi, I talk about the judge. Because, Chinese medicine started with archetypes and storytelling and poetry, not with the textbook. Chinese medicine didn't start at a textbook. It started with storytelling. The shamans told stories. It had beautiful feelings. It evolved the feeling in people. And that feeling then got ingrained and now develop an association. When they heard the word, it brought the feeling up. So, in Chinese Medicine, you always have to work with both. You have to bring the word to arise a feeling, otherwise it will not work. It's not based on science.


Mason: (48:42)

Well, and then people are trying to lay them over each other.


Jost: (48:45)

They can't.


Mason: (48:45)

And they can't, right?


Jost: (48:45)

No. It's a fairy tale.


Mason: (48:48)

I mean, and that's the interesting in what you were just saying about if you say Spleen, and in conversation, you almost need to say Spleen earth in order to... because you can't go capital S spleen.


Jost: (49:04)

Upper case spleen. It just goes on and on and on.


Mason: (49:10)

And that is the interesting thing in terms of, I feel like most Westerners learning these concepts is arriving in an acceptance and acknowledges... And a feeling state rather than a thinking state when tuning in to this Qi. And rather going, "Okay, what time is it? Oh, okay, I'm waking up at Liver time. Maybe physiologically something is happening to my Liver." And feeling like that possibly could be, and there is probably a reality to that.


Jost: (49:40)

Which is there in the correlation, the correspondence to that Liver time isn't actually in the large intestine time. It's never at the time.


Mason: (49:45)

Well, that's the interesting thing. You can't think about the physiology necessarily. That's where I've tripped up, years ago when I was starting out, it's where I kept on tripping up. And probably when I talked to most young acupuncturists not getting taught the reality of not trying to fit this Qi model or like this reality, this gigantic system into Western pathology. Although there can be crossovers, that's fun and interesting, but you need to stay within that system that's respecting the classics, right?


Jost: (50:21)

Yeah. My observation is they work very well together as long as you don't try and explain with Western words what Chinese phrases are.


Mason: (50:30)

I think that's the distinction. Yeah.


Jost: (50:30)

And you can use a Chinese to explain the West. I believe that both work very well, because I work with supplements which are based on Western sciences, I work with all kinds of Western science principles, but that's a different approach. It's Yin and Yang. You can't explain Yin with Yang. They are a totally different approach, but if you put the two things together, that's what I believe the future is.


Mason: (50:56)



Jost: (50:56)

Chinese Medicine is fairytale. It's magic, it's psychedelic. It takes you into feeling, and it shows you your potential. It's power, it's magic. It makes you strong, incredibly powerful. And, it's longevity. I mean, at my age of 61, I can't relate to men of my age, because-


Mason: (51:18)

Too much Jing.


Jost: (51:19)

Yeah. I relate more to the 30 year old, because when I work out, I work out more on the 30 year olds level, not the 61 year old level. So, obviously I go into the Qi. If you go into chi, you always rectify symptoms. You always rectify symptoms. So, that's why I talk in my book Clock On, how to direct it. You wake up to a symptom for a reason, and Large Intestine is designed to move the symptom. So, if you use the Western signs and use Chinese lifestyle, medicine lifestyle, wow that's the potency. And I believe this is where we moving towards. And it was prophesied by Waysun Liao, a famous Tai chi master in 1974, when he wrote that book treatise of Tai Chi, and you talked to the Chen family. He talked about the Chen Tai Chi.


Jost: (52:12)

I need to say there are a lot of people have a misconception of Tai chi, because what we see in the West, old people in the park is not Tai Chi. It's like saying a skateboard is a Lamborghini.


Mason: (52:21)

Yeah. I mean, I think that's something that's happened in a lot of these traditional. If you look at yin yoga, then practices like restorative yoga just flopping into a position verse of very active intentional five minute hold in a position that is designed to completely transform and open a meridian, it's a very different concept. So, it's hard fucking work. And that's what Tai Chi being, "Well, this nice. I'm just going with the energy of the universe without going through the methodical work of learning to engage the [crosstalk 00:52:57].


Jost: (52:58)

And your legs, and you burn your legs, it's so intense, so painful, so incredible, intense. But then, you just, you can see your direction. You can see your purpose. So, while you do the move, it's enormously intense, but you can see who you are and it moves you. So, it puts you in an altered state immediately. But Waysun Liao prophesied in the 1970s, that what the Chinese started, this [inaudible 00:53:30] and the whole Tai Chi, the Supreme ultimate, not the Tai Chi, the form, but the the supreme ultimate, the yin yang, "What they're tapping to is profound." But he said, it will be completed in the West.


Mason: (53:43)

Yeah, and well, that integration model is, and that's I think there's this distinction, because this is where it's such... it's slippery. Of course, this is always going to remain slippery. The distinction to not try and layer these two systems over each other, but allow them to sit side by side and work together-


Jost: (54:03)

If you're trying to sort out Chinese medicine and Western medicine, it's like giving a male, trying to sort out hormonal problems with a woman.


Mason: (54:12)



Jost: (54:12)

Or, a woman telling a man what ejaculation should be about, or a man telling a woman how she should psychologically feel. It doesn't work. It's asleep, doesn't work in harmony.


Mason: (54:23)

Where can I just leave them to be who they are.


Jost: (54:27)

Work in harmony. You can't understand day, when you're at nighttime. You won't say, "we're getting sick of wet. We need from now only to have dry," or, "we don't need cold anymore. We only have hot," or, "we don't need men anymore, we only have women." It's just bullshit.


Mason: (54:50)

Yeah, man, sing it. Before we go, for some people that aren't aware of that organ clock, can you run us through kind of an example? A very general, because obviously this is a huge conversation. You've got two books really tapping into it, but can you run us through an example?


Jost: (55:15)

Yes. It's very simple.


Mason: (55:16)

Yeah. Okay.


Jost: (55:16)

Yeah. You wake up today to let go of the previous day.


Mason: (55:19)



Jost: (55:19)

So, you wake up to Large Intestine time. That means, Large Intestine is you go to the toilet.


Mason: (55:24)



Jost: (55:25)

You clean out your system. That's your cleaner. Before you start the day, you clean out your unit. You clean your apartment, you clean everything out. That means Large Intestine gets rid of negative thoughts. If you start the day without cleaning, the negative thoughts of yesterday will dominate you today. So, in the Qi cycle lifestyle, we always start with letting go of the old first, because it's a new day. So, we do these via Qi practices. We do this with yoga, with core training, but we don't engage with the work yet. We don't engage with talking to people. We don't engage with having breakfast yet. First of all, detox the system. And that's what pretty much like all of Western medicine cancer researchers revealed, you want to get rid of the bad cells. You want to eliminate toxins and you want to get rid of waste products, because if the bad cells, negative cells go, the good cells can flourish.


Jost: (56:29)

So, in order to be healthy, first of all, we need to let go. So, that's like Large Intestine. Let go. Because if it goes, bang, then you can come in. So then, because we let go, the next thing is, we're working with the peacemaker, which is stomach Qi. And that means after we have cleaned out everything, we now sit down and have a mindful breakfast. So, we have nice, we've got to be aware we're not getting up and have breakfast. We clean out first, detox. Then, whatever time it's required to do that. Then, when we finish, we move into sitting down mindful and eating a warm breakfast. The happiest people I've met in my time in all the East, the happiest and happy, really strongest people all have cooked warm breakfast. But they do practice beforehand. So, I never have fruit juice and stuff like that.


Mason: (57:25)

You don't go in and dampen the stomach.


Jost: (57:26)

No. You start with warming. So, the reason why the stomach is called, why I call the stomach the peacemaker is, because the stomach is in fact your system in order to negotiate with other people in harmony. So, if you start the day correctly by going into mindfulness, you then have the ability to engage with others in a peaceful intent. So, it becomes natural. So, you have this 20 minutes where you sit and eat and go mindful and you don't multitask. If you don't, , and you multitask and you stand up and rush around, you're not the peacemaker. You're a troublemaker, because now you get to reactive throughout the day. Because, you didn't let go of your negative thoughts through your practice. You didn't have the peacemaker. You didn't settle in the morning with breakfast. Now, you've got too much negativity and you got to dump it on others. Road rage, anger, telling other people what they should be doing, getting judgemental, critical and things like that.


Jost: (58:34)

The peace maker means, you're not judgemental. You just going through the day, whatever it is, but you know exactly who you are, so you keep moving. Then after that, after the peacemaker, after a beautiful peaceful breakfast, you go hard. Work very hard. And that's the builder and the emperor and that Spleen and Heart. So, you work very, very hard on your journey, on your job, on whatever needs to be doing. You know who you are, because you have seen who you are and you felt who you are during your morning practice. It was all downloaded via the breakfast. The breakfast gave you the piece, now you work hard. So, it's you start with the Yang, breakfast at Yin, then you go Yang. Then, about one o'clock, it's Small Intestine time and it's now judgment. So, that means you need to sit back and allow the whole day to be looked at. So, you stop rushing. You're in front of the judge, and the judge will look at your case, because you've done already a major part of your day. Because really when you look at, you started the day about by transforming negativity into positivity. You did the detox, you then had peaceful intent set at breakfast. You then worked very hard in your destiny. Then at one o'clock, or 1:30, you sit down... And then you sit down and you have a meal, lunch.


Jost: (59:56)

And then, in the afternoon you go more into the Yin mode. And then, at five o'clock you go into Kidney time. It means you switch off from the day. And at switch off time, between 5:00 and 7:00, you're actually switching off from the day.


Jost: (01:00:13)

[inaudible 01:00:13].


Mason: (01:00:16)

Jake, you can edit that part, yeah?


Jost: (01:00:18)

Yeah. [inaudible 01:00:18].


Jost: (01:00:27)

So then, this is another important part, between 5:00 PM and 7:00 PM is exactly the same importance as between 5:00 AM and 7:00 AM. That sometime in the time, you need to switch off from the day, because the Yang phase is moving into the Yin phase. So, the Qi side is all about Yang, Yang, Yang, Yang, going to mid time. And then, from the afternoon it goes into Yin phase. But then, between 5:00 and 7:00, we need to consciously switch off. Once again, we work with the practice, a little bit of Chi Gong, a bit of yoga and it takes us away from thinking into feeling. But because it's supported by the Kidney, and the Kidney is the puppeteer. And the Kidneys are another of Yin and Yang. You actually have a direct access to the scene behind the curtain. Actually you feel mystical in that moment.


Jost: (01:01:19)

So, the switch off practice, when you look at the ancient cultures, between 5:00 and 7:00, the farmers, everyone, the workers came into the village, into the center and played bowls. They're switching off from the day.


Mason: (01:01:32)

That's the same with the Italians playing dominoes at the day.


Jost: (01:01:34)

Yeah. Domino, connecting, not via work, connecting via play.


Mason: (01:01:44)



Jost: (01:01:44)

So, if you connect via play, you work with Yin and Yang. So, that means you're actually letting go of the day. At the same time, you're embracing the joy of being in the company of others. So, this is all ancient cultures follow the Qi cycle.


Mason: (01:02:00)

Yeah, you're right.


Jost: (01:02:01)

And then, between 7:00 and 9:00, they all go home and then you're just by yourself, with your family, with your loved ones, and you go completely into yourself. And that's when you have another meal and a glass of wine. And it's completely just cut off from the day. It is like, now you had security at home. And Pericardium time between 7:00 and 9:00 is actually being at home. And, it's called the bodyguard in my book, because if you get this right, you will actually guard the heart off cardiovascular disease and anxiety and all kinds of other stuff. Because the Pericardium channel is the channel that got discovered in the 1600s hundreds, and it's the main channel used in order to treat CVD, cardiovascular disease, anxiety, depression, etc. And, that you regulate that simply by between 7:00 and 9:00 PM, you're just going into yourself and being with loved ones and you're not doing anything in order to project outside. You guard your heart. It's your body guard. You got your heart. It's like the body guard in front of the prime minister, it ushers all the journalists the way.


Mason: (01:03:08)



Jost: (01:03:09)

So, by seven o'clock you're going into your own world. So, it is the pajamas, whatever, cross fitting, whatever. It's irrelevant, as long as you're completely calm. And then, usually, if you follow the cycle so far, at nine o'clock, the energy goes into San Jiao, which is a mystical organ. And I call it in the book the ferry man, because it's actually involved with the lubrication. It's like a ferry man in Venice. And what it is, it's actually the flow of water. So, if you follow this cycle, by nine o'clock, you will actually suddenly get very tired.


Mason: (01:03:46)

Yeah. Okay. So, that's like just that body guard time. Going in and spending time with yourself and family is basically then the emergence of rituals around preparing for bed as well, or preparing yourself for that sleep cycle as well, right?


Jost: (01:04:04)

You see, it starts very Yang. The day starts at 5:00 AM and goes very, very Yang, Yang, Yang, Yang, Yang, Yang, and then by one o'clock it starts going into the Yin phase. By five, six o'clock by going to switch off like playing dominoes or whatever with people, you go into Yin mode. Then, in Yericardium time, the body at that time, you're really going yin, because you need to got the Heart. You got to guard the Heart.


Mason: (01:04:30)

The most important organ to protect. Yeah.


Jost: (01:04:32)

Taoism is all about guard the one.


Mason: (01:04:35)

Absolutely, guard the emperor.


Jost: (01:04:37)

Got to guard. You just got to guard. And that's why I call it the bodyguard, you've got to guard it. In two different, we all know this.


Mason: (01:04:43)



Jost: (01:04:43)

We all know that, because we all come from the same source. We all know this. It's not rocket science.


Mason: (01:04:50)

We feel intruded on at that time if someone tries to come in and... like come into our house, or come in... or message us. If we feel like, those communications where you're going like, "Well, I feel it anyway." It's just like that, "Get out of my space."


Jost: (01:05:04)

Yeah, that's it. Exactly. It's about cutting off now. And all you need to be around those... like your children, wife, whatever. Ideally, it's going into yourself. And if you follow that through, you will know just by nine o'clock San Jiao, the ferry man, your body actually moves all the notification off the Qi. It moves the Qi. And now it wants you to go to bed. You suddenly get very tired. And this is a dangerous time, because if you stay up, you get a second wind.


Mason: (01:05:35)

Yes. Where is that second wind coming from?


Jost: (01:05:38)

The second wind is because San Jiao, that ferry man, is also connected to your emotions. The idea is to move the emotions to go into sleep, so you can move home, because we come from the start in Chinese Medicine, then we sleep. It's mystical. And I describe it in my book exactly how Chinese Medicine looks at what sleep is, because Western medicine doesn't understand sleep. We all know we need to sleep, but what it really is... And the fact is, when we sleep, we actually are drifting away into our true reality, which is the land of no time, which is spirit built. It hasn't got, its energy world. It's an astral built dimension.


Mason: (01:06:21)

And this is why it's so important for us to have an appropriate amount of yin and blood to be able to hold us here in reality.


Jost: (01:06:27)

Yes, that is correct. Because, what happens is when we sleep, the San Jiao the ferry man is now doing all kinds of restructuring of the organ lubrication. If the organs are lubricated, they then can do the detox, which happens at 11:00 PM when the gall bladder takes over, because the gall bladder's detox. But the gallbladder can't do the detox and cleanse the body, if the fluids aren't moving around. So, San Jiao, The function of the San Jiao or the ferry man, is for you to go to bed by 9: 30, 10 o'clock, so that you can activate that process, so the fluids can move throughout the body. So, when you fall asleep, then the gallbladder can do the cleansing. And then the energy moves at one o'clock into the Liver, the Liver will do more-


Mason: (01:07:19)

The general.


Jost: (01:07:20)

Yeah, the general. It will do planning for the next day.


Mason: (01:07:24)

Well, this is yin biological planning for the next way.


Jost: (01:07:27)

Yes, biological planning for the next day. Sleep is required for you to actually get the information for the next day. So, if you stay up after 9:00, you get the second wind. That movement of the San Jiao now makes you inspired to talk to others suddenly. Now you want to talk, now you want to open up. Now you're actually using what the body wants to do during sleep, you're using that consciously by talking to other people.


Mason: (01:07:57)

That's super interesting. We used to call it party mode.


Jost: (01:08:01)

Yes. Party mode.


Mason: (01:08:01)



Jost: (01:08:02)

Party mode. So, that's exactly what it is. I talk about it in the book. It's exactly party mode.


Mason: (01:08:06)

Oh, is that what you call it?


Jost: (01:08:07)

Yeah. Party mode. It's fascinating how at nine o'clock, if you break through that wind, if you get to second wind, you actually suddenly want to open up and talk.


Mason: (01:08:18)



Jost: (01:08:19)

And get emotional. And the reason why that is, because San Jiao is in fact an emotional mood, it's moving, but it's not designed to express it. It's designed to take the emotions from the previous day in order to move them, so they can be utilized for cleansing. So, now you bring it up, now it goes in circles. It's supposed to be cleansed, and now you bring it up and talk about more and more and more and more. When I was a social worker, we always noticed when we worked with clients in refuge centers and rehab centers, client's never talked anything till nine o'clock. But 9:00 PM, suddenly everyone started to open up about their emotions.


Mason: (01:08:58)

Yeah. Right.


Jost: (01:09:01)

But, you actually don't resolve anything.


Mason: (01:09:01)

They're on the clock.


Jost: (01:09:02)

You don't resolve anything. If you sit down with your maid between 9:00 and 11:00 and then talk about their emotions, you're not resolving anything.


Mason: (01:09:10)

I mean, you're making it even worse when you are young on drugs or you're boozed up, then all your emotions come up at like... you're doing it at like 11:00, 12:00, 1:00, 2:00 in the morning sharing all your deepest emotions and you're having the biggest DNMs. and then the next day you're like, "what did I say? what were we on about?" And then, finally the night.


Jost: (01:09:31)

Yeah. So, what happens is, because of everything now is moved, the cleansing, gall bladder, liver, then at 3:00 AM, it's actually awakening to your true self.


Mason: (01:09:44)

And that's where the Lung and breath come in.


Jost: (01:09:45)

Yeah. Because, it is now where everything has moved through and now you're starting the new day. And it starts with the Lung, and the Lung is your identity of who you are. So, it starts with opening up of bang, "this is me." And so, this information is coming down to us now at that time. It's between 3:00 and 5:00. It's still energetic, so you can't intellectually grasp it, but it's all coming in. Which is why all Chinese masters and yogis and Buddhists, 3:30 what do they do? Meditation.


Mason: (01:10:21)



Jost: (01:10:21)

Yeah. The Shaolin, they get up at 2:30, so ready for the three o'clock arrival of the night, because that's your true identity. So, which is why early morning rise is crucial if you want to identify your destiny. If you want to nourish your destiny, sleeping in is the biggest problem in the Western world. Making up your own times, people staying up all night, doing all-nighters. All the symptoms that you get these days, all lifestyle.


Mason: (01:10:53)

What would you say is deficient for those that need to be awake at night to creatively not have all that mental noise around them?


Jost: (01:11:05)

Yeah. The idea is too, okay, I talk about it in the book also. You can't control insomnia at the time when you got the bed. The best time to control insomnia is 5:00 AM. Large Intestine.


Mason: (01:11:20)



Jost: (01:11:21)

Because Large Intestine, the Large Intestine channel is the channel we always used to control stress and all that mental activity, which is colon four and Large Intestine four. And, most acupuncturists have got to overuse this point. Large intestine four is to apply to be always used in every treatment, because the bang immediately controls the Liver. It takes the yang off, it takes heat off, all kinds of stuff. So, if you get active at night time, it's because your Large Intestine energy is not established. So, first of all, you want to work with acupuncture. In order to regulate it, you want to work with herbs to do that, but it's your lifestyle by waking at 5:00 AM which will do that.


Mason: (01:12:05)



Jost: (01:12:06)

So, this is where my training under the masters has revealed to me there's two ways of how to work with herbs. You can use herbs in order to correct the symptoms, or you can use herbs to realise your soul. Yeah. And for self-realization, that's the highest application for herbs. So, I don't take herbs to be youthful or whatever. I don't do it for that. I do it to realise my soul. For me, it's destiny.


Mason: (01:12:35)

To realise your destiny. That really has a twang to it.


Jost: (01:12:38)

Yeah. To realize my destiny. I use it to nourish my destiny. I use the herb, so I can live my path.


Mason: (01:12:45)



Jost: (01:12:45)

It's just like, if I've got headaches or any kind of symptoms, I regulate that with tea training, and it's straight gone. So, I'll regulate that with Large Intestine time. If I've got a symptom, 5:00 AM I move that through. But, it's the real purpose of like ashwaghanda, astragalus, rehmannia, all these beautiful, powerful herb that everyone should be on it. I take it everyday. And I take Cordyceps sinensis. I take all the herbs. All the herbs that you have in your shop, I take them all the time. So, I do them everyday.


Mason: (01:13:20)

I'm with you man. And there's a reason why they raise to these heights of reverence.


Jost: (01:13:25)

Absolutely essential. But, I use them in conjunction with my practice. That's the thing. So, my practice is the alchemy. That's my process, but the herbs are the ingredients for the process. It's a fuel. I put that in there, but my practice churns it. My practices churns it.


Mason: (01:13:43)

There's a distinction.


Jost: (01:13:43)

Yeah. So, in Taoism, we look at herbs as superior to food. They're more important than food. And, of course they are foods, but they're superior. There's an intelligence in there. I mean, I have [inaudible 01:13:59] messengers, like everyone should be honored. But, I don't do them to correct symptoms. I use my practice to correct symptoms, and I'd do the herbs to nourish my soul.


Mason: (01:14:12)

I love it. Yeah, it's so good. We'll Look on that as a perfect place to finish it off. You've got five books?


Jost: (01:14:21)

Five books here.


Mason: (01:14:22)

I'm going to get my hands on your other, I'm going to read Higher and Higher, that from drugs and destruction to health and happiness.


Jost: (01:14:30)

Yeah. That's all my crazy stories in Nimbin, Amsterdam.


Mason: (01:14:33)

I can't wait.


Jost: (01:14:35)

Filled with stories. I love storytelling.


Mason: (01:14:37)

And it was interesting, Clock On, I've obviously got a copy. I've got a copy now for the workplace, for our library here to just set side. But yeah, when you turned up, when I introduced you to Wazza in the warehouse, he was like, "Oh, I just bought your book, Clock On." So, that was like, you know what I mean? Words getting out there. I think Clock On is a really great one for everyone to kind of start with, right?


Jost: (01:14:58)

Yeah. It just introduces you to the magic of Chinese medicine.


Mason: (01:15:01)



Jost: (01:15:03)

The book is not complicated. It's not academic, because Chinese Medicine can't be academic.


Mason: (01:15:09)

That's the best thing, is that it's not academic at all.


Jost: (01:15:12)

If it's academic, it's not Chinese Medicine.


Mason: (01:15:14)

Yeah, bang on.


Jost: (01:15:16)

Chinese Medicine is poetry, because you need to feel it. You need to provide the relevant associations in order to connect to the feeling. Yeah? So, that's different. So, that's why the training is incredible, deep, but you're working with... When you look at the Tao Te Ching, it's just beautiful, simple storytelling. Taoists, all the Chinese are storytelling. So, you can't ever put academic words for Chinese Medicine. So, that's why this book is more like a storytelling. It's a narrative of 12 characters.


Mason: (01:15:51)



Jost: (01:15:51)

It's about the cleaner, and they're quirky characters, they're all comic characters.


Mason: (01:15:56)

Well, how else are we going to maintain this for 80 years or 100 years or 120 years? We can't sit there in our intellect going through the reduced nuances of chemistry and basically intellectualizing the entire thing. The only way we're going to have ease and grace and be able to fill those gaps from we are intellectualizing something, is for... through storytelling.


Jost: (01:16:19)

Yes, exactly. Yeah. I mean, just like if someone says, "I feel this and this, I bet I need the cleaner."


Mason: (01:16:20)



Jost: (01:16:20)

Immediately in association, but if it's, "oh, I need larger intestine four and I need liver three, and I need this..." That is too complicated.


Mason: (01:16:33)

Too complicated. It's way too complicated for the household and for mum's and dad's and kid's to be able to manage themselves and lean towards the sovereignty, in which you must have strong foundations of Jing and sovereignty and the ability to manage yourself in order to-


Jost: (01:16:49)

That's why I'm always talking about herbs in that book every time. You never have not herbs. You're always talking about herbs. Herbs is your foundation. That's your fuel, but then your lifestyle utilizes the herbs to create the perfect life.


Mason: (01:17:05)

Well, maybe we'll have to jump on and do another podcast just talking about the herbs, because there's I think there's a couple already... I want to have you back on and do a podcast just about herbalism.


Jost: (01:17:12)



Mason: (01:17:13)

That's definitely one. And also I'm thinking, man, I could deep dive into sleep. That would be a fun one.


Jost: (01:17:19)

Oh, yeah.


Mason: (01:17:20)

Best place for people to catch your work. I mean, I love your Instagram. I think people should definitely go and catch you there. Can you just let everyone know though your Instagram handle and-


Jost: (01:17:31)

Oh, yeah. My Instagram is just Jost Sauer. But then my website is the


Mason: (01:17:38)

And so, the Instagram is J-O-S-T S-A-U-E-R?


Jost: (01:17:41)



Mason: (01:17:41)

Yeah, all right. Okay.


Jost: (01:17:42)

What comes up. Yeah, at


Mason: (01:17:45)



Jost: (01:17:47)

Yeah, that's the website.


Mason: (01:17:48)

Okay. Yeah.


Jost: (01:17:49)



Mason: (01:17:49)

Thanks so much, man.


Jost: (01:17:50)

Thank you.


Mason: (01:17:50)

I really appreciate it. Great chat. I'm sure everyone loved it, and see you next time.


Jost: (01:17:54)

See you next time.

Back to All


Wild Food with Daniel Vitalis - Forager (EP#49)

We welcome Daniel Vitalis onto the pod today and might I just say stoke level is pretty high! Daniel is a forager, registered Maine Guide, writer, public speaker, interviewer, and lifestyle pioneer who is deeply passionate about helping others reconnect with wildness,...

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Wild Food with Daniel Vitalis - Forager (EP#49)