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The chat features Sara Murdock, an award-winning pharmacist and key integrator on the front line of modern health, addressing the reality that people actively use both pharmaceuticals and natural therapies.
The central challenge is ensuring this dual approach is done safely, a dilemma highlighted by Sara's inability to recommend beloved products like turmeric due to potential harmful interactions with certain medications. This underscores her definition of Integrative Healthcare: leveraging the best of both worlds with structure, accountability, and paramount safety.ย
Mason and Sara connect this caution to the Taoist principle of Fรบ Zhรจng (Protect the Upright), advocating a pivot away from interactive single herbs toward general, harmonizing options (like yin tonics or non-interactive mushrooms) to build resilience. Pharmacists and GPs are framed as the necessary societal bridge, authorizing patients to add supportive tools (like magnesium or a probiotic) to build health and diminish long-term drug reliance. Sara calls her dedication to continuous growth "skill stacking," embodying true intelligence by integrating opposing ideasโthe "chemistry queen" who loves science/math, and the deep soul who leads with heart.ย
The conversation lands on the essential requirement for all healthcare providers to practice "the healing of the healer," prioritizing their own health and grounding rituals (nature, quiet moments, exercise) to prevent burnout.
Sara & Mason Discuss:
- Integration is Key: Patients are actively using both pharmaceuticals and natural therapies, making safety checks and collaboration essential for frontline professionals.
- Holistic Foundation: When patients are anxious or chronically sick, health professionals must inquire about the core non-negotiables: sleep, hydration, gut health, and vitamin D.
- Safety First: Integrative care is defined by leveraging the best of both worlds under conditions of structure, accountability, and paramount safety.
- The Bridge Role: Pharmacists and GPs are positioned to bridge the knowledge gap, authorizing patients to safely add supportive tools to build health and reduce reliance on drugs.
- Taoist Caution: The principle of Fรบ Zhรจng (Protect the Upright) guides pivoting away from interactive herbs (like turmeric) toward non-interactive, harmonizing options to support the bodyโs metabolic capacity to heal.
- Skill Stacking: True intelligence requires integrating seemingly opposing ideas, such as loving rigorous science/math while simultaneously leading with heart and a deep soul.
- Healing the Healer: Recognizing the necessity of grounding ritualsโquiet moments, nature, and exerciseโis essential for healers to maintain health and prevent burnout.
Who is Sara Murdock?
Sara is an experienced pharmacist, community health advocate, and the Lead Pharmacist at Pharmacy 777 Pascoe Vale in Victoria. With over 20 years in the profession, Sara has played a significant role in advancing local healthcare delivery through clinical leadership, service development, and strong community partnerships.
In 2025, Sara was recognised as the VIC Pharmacist of the Year by the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia and the National Winner of the Outstanding Community Pharmacist Award by Patients Australia. Recently, Sara also was awarded the 2025 International Pharmacist of the Year by the Pharmacy Innovation Assembly, are acknowledgements that reflect her growing impact across pharmacy practice.
Sara is a passionate advocate for accessible healthcare, full scope pharmacy practice, and inclusive community services. She has led major health initiatives, including school-based immunisation programs, chronic disease prevention efforts, aged care outreach, and student mentoring programs. She also established the first pharmacist-led vaccination clinic at the local neighbourhood house, expanding care to vulnerable and underserved populations.
Beyond the dispensary, Sara is a key contributor to the national Pharmacy 777 Retail Services Pharmacy Owners Working Group. She collaborates on strategies for patient-centric care, retail innovation, and sustainable business models that support both pharmacists and consumers across Australia.
Her leadership also extends far beyond the pharmacy walls. Sara is an active Rotarian and Chair of Community Services for her local Rotary Club. She is a trusted speaker at Rotary events, parliamentary forums, health panels, universities, and grassroots community gatherings, bringing both lived experience and professional expertise to the conversation.
As a solo mother of two and a dedicated health professional, Sara brings compassion, experience, and clarity of purpose to her work. She is especially committed to supporting the next generation of pharmacists and advocating for systems that deliver better outcomes for patients and communities alike.
Saraโs voice is one of resilience. At just 12 years old, she was smuggled from war-tom Iraq through mountains and borders, arriving in Australia as a child refugee. Her early experiences shaped her enduring belief in equitable healthcare and the power of service, Today, she continues to build a career and legacy rooted in care, contribution, and connection, proving that itโs possible to lead with strength while remaining grounded in humanity.
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Check Out The Transcript Below:
Mason:
I just thought I'd just, because I'mโฆ I thought we were about to say something,
Sara:
I think this is perfect. You know what? I say the best things when I know I'm not being recorded, so I'm glad you've pressed record without telling me you recorded! I love that!
Mason:
I know, I would've got aโฆ
Sara:
the passion comes across, so I'm just gonna pretend we're not recording, but yeah, it's very interesting what you're stating, because, I mean, I sit in a very unique position in healthcare as a pharmacist, you know. I'm trained in evidence and safety and clinical decision making, but we're also right at the front Line of community, where you see what people are actually doing, day to day. And not what is actually written in the guidelines. And the reality of it is people are choosing between pharmaceuticals and natural medicine. I mean, sorry, the reality is people aren't choosing between the pharmaceuticals or natural therapies anymore. They are using both. But the question is whether they're doing it safely or blindly, you know?
Mason:
Well, that's what I'm interested to hear about. You know, as you said, like, you're on the front line. before everyone, but I should've justโฆ I should know by now that gold comes out. We were talking about, hospitality bladder, and I guess that's pharmacist bladder for Sarah, like, how, like, you can just be getting slammed. For me, it was in the bar where I just trained myself not to need to go to the toilet for hours on, and Sarah. It's like, yeah, that's the same when you're doingโฆ filing prescriptions and you're getting slammed. You're soโฆ
Sara:
Honestly, so many times, I come home at 6, and I'm like, gosh, I have not been since 6am this morning. It's like you subconsciously start training your bladder to not evenโฆ tell you you need to go anymore, because you're just so on the go, and it's not a very healthy way to live. It'sโฆ it's what I advise my patients not to do.
Mason:
I'm always, like, it's such a good skill to have, to be able to, like, you know, right, I didn't eat, I'm drinking minimum water, not going to the toilet. Like, it's a good, like, gritty thing to know you've got in you, but then when it becomes the habit, it's, like, probably the best ever.
Sara:
No, and funny you say about water, like, I can be, you know, even talking about compliance with my patients, and then I think to myself, I'm probably not the most compliant. patient myself, but drinking water, you know, someโฆ hydration is something I speak about all the time in the pharmacy, where you've got cold and flu, a UTI, just general health and wellbeing. One of the first questions I ask, well, usually is how you're sleeping, and how much do you drink? Are you well hydrated? And I thinkโฆ you know, as a pharmacist, or even a lot of health professionals, I wonder how many of them ask that question. How is your sleep? How much are you drinking? Like, you knowโฆ
Mason:
But also, it's like, how is itโฆ is itโฆ is it being asked in a non-tokenistic way? Because it's almost kind of like a thing now, it's like, oh, I'm, you know, like, and it's like, I'm going to ask about sleep and hydration, but have you really understood how to put someone on a program to cultivate that, like, those.
Sara:
Thank you. It's that, you know, when out of justโฆ I was just really curious to see how other pharmacists approach this integrative health world, or how they talk about immunity and gut health, and walked into a pharmacy, not wearing my pharmacist coat, and just asked about, you know, gut health, and it just were not well-informed or well-educated, unfortunately, and I didn't receive the appropriate advice, or I could tell the person in front of me didn't really know what he was talking about, and I walked away feeling sad, because it's when a patient comes in saying, I'm always getting sick. I have this cold that I can't get rid of. It'sโฆ I'm promโฆ tell me about your sleep. Tell me about your gut health, because it's all connected. It affects yourโฆ if you're looking after your gut, it's gonna affect your energy, your immunity, your skin health, your mental health, inflammatory responses.
So many things, and I loved educating my patients about that. And you see the uptake in people is phenomenal. Theyโฆ I can't even tell you how many people walked away yesterday saying to me, thank you so much for your advice. Thank you for educating me. Like, as I said earlier, people aren't choosing one system anymore. They're using both. They're curious. They want to learn, they want to be educated. They want to understand about their gut health. Why is your immune system so run down? Why is it affecting their energy? And the problem we've got is there's no integration between the two worlds, you know? I don't believe in extremes. I don't believe, that it's gotta be always natural, and I don't believe that pharmaceuticals are the only answer. There's a role for both.
For me, integrative healthcare means using the best of both worlds, but with structure, accountability, and safety around it.
Mason:
Oh, so many cool points, and as we were getting into it, Sarah was like, right, are we doing, like, a flow, or are we doing questions? You guys all, like, know, definitely a flowy But.
Sara:
Much better flowy as well.
Mason:
No, and that's why I and Iโฆ Yes, you were invited onto the podcast, because I could see you wereโฆ
Sara:
I'm passionate about what you, you know, like. just lifestyle, how we treat ourโฆ I often, like, even with my kids, what I say is your bodyโฆ treat your body like a car. If you put bad fuel in it, it'll break down.
Mason:
Well, that integer is, like, I think is really interesting, and what I was talking about is, like, I think this isโฆ I want to flow from this point, especially it's interesting chatting since we're both in a, you know, in that integrative curiosity, and I, you know, I think I probably, like, a lot of people listening to this podcast, and definitely me, like, a decade ago, would have been, like, right into being identified in the alternative health and natural, and so at that point, you look, and you look at kind of what I call, like, the low-hanging fruit of institutional modern medicine, and paint it with the same brush. And likewise, I know what it's like. I've got friends right within an institution that's meeting a civilโฆ a need as we expand in civilization, and I've really kind of come off my more kind of, like. you know, notโฆ
not to ease myself, but just, like, you know, my, you know, the more, sinister kind of, like, approaches that there's, like, an intentional damaging going on, just, like, through profiteering. I just think those are both, like, edges, and likewise, I've got so many people in the institution looking over at Alternative Health and doing the same painting of a brush, just because there's a few extremists. In both of them, it's like, and if we can get through thatโฆ
Sara:
bad experiences as well, like, even me as a patient, I've had so many bad experiences with health professionals, where I felt like they're not listening, or they're biased, or they're just checked out, and they're just there because they've got to pay the bills, and I felt like a transaction. And I think that sometimes can also make youโฆ as a patient, you probably think. that's not going to help me, or you lose trust. It's all about trust, right?
Mason:
at the alternative, like, that's why I've come out going, it's my favorite thing, this alternative health world. I love it. I love spiritual cultivation and health, and oh my gosh. Save me from the people within theseโฆ these scenes that I've lost.
Sara:
And I actually really respect the philosophy around prevention and daily rituals. It's something that I encourage my patients, whether they're trying to lose weight, or better their immune system, or, have better sleep. we just don't do enough of it in the Western healthcare. We wait for disease, and then we treat it. Whereas a lot of traditional systems are about building resilience, supporting the body daily, and that's something we need to do more of.
Mason:
Well, you're on the front line, and this is the other thing, I mean, my attitude has come from a much more of a large scope of kind of coming out of these, you know, well out of these ambiguous you know, I think there's lots of conspiracies occurring, and I think they're still ground.
Sara:
funded in.
Mason:
And I still think humans can get really parasitic and nasty and profiteery, but that happens everywhere. That's not just in anything, like, inโฆ that'sโฆ I can see it in alternative health, and I see it in big pharmaceutical companies, but I see we've exploded through industrial revolutions, we've exploded in population. I've kind ofโฆ I think we're doing an incredible job at just hanging on and building institutions that can meet people where they're at, and thenโฆ now we're at an integer of adjustment, which you'reโฆ I really like that you're embodying, but alsoโฆ you're on that front line of it, which isโฆ that's what I really wanted to.
Sara:
Yeah.
Mason:
Frontline, and you can see people coming, coming, coming, and maybe a bit of dependence, but you're starting to integrate, and lots of other people are starting to integrate. I'm kind of looking down that lens of, especially in Australian culture and within the pharmacy Ultra.
Sara:
I want to know how you want to collaborate with pharmacists and GPs and other healthcare professionals. It's so important, and I think we do need to collaborate. with the integrative health world, and you're right, in pharmacy, I see the reality. I see patients on multiple medications, managing chronic conditions, and at the same time, they're adding supplements, herbs, mushrooms. Often based on somethingโฆ something they saw online, or were recommended. And most of the time, no one is checking how all of that interacts together. And these are the issues we need to make sure, like, for me, the non-negotiables is safety. Safety always comes first, understanding interactions is critical, and the patient needs to actually understand what they are taking and why. Because ifโฆ Even if something isn't natural, it can still interact, it can still cause harm.
And once someone has a condition, or is on medication, it changes the conversation. Right? And this is why I think collaboration and understanding and further education in the integrative health world is so, so important, you know. Like, I love turmeric. I love curcumin and turmeric. It's one of my favorite products. But would you believe I cannot give it to one of my patients? Because he is, as much as he wants to use it, and has asked my opinion about it. I can'tโฆ I can't prescribe it for him or recommend it, because of all the medications that he's on, and the interaction and the harm it will cause. So, yeah, we need to not be all for one or against a specific thing. I think it needs to all come together.
Mason:
And that'sโฆ I've always had, you know, we've kind of, like, at the detriment of sales, we've always erred on that side of, cautions, why I have, like, oncologists on the podcast, you know, having yourself on the podcast, herbalists, acupuncturists, because it's probably that aspect of Taoist herbalism is one that when you are in a state of harmony, or you just have some lifestyle symptoms, you add them in and you can cultivate. Or if you're lifestyle symptoms and you're trying to move through them without going and relying on, like, a heavier herb or a pharmaceutical, then that's a really appropriate time. And so, trying to drum that into the market and into.
Sara:
Yeah, I love it.
Mason:
It's beenโฆ
Sara:
what you're doing. It's so important, it's great, and you know what? It just goes to show that you've got the right attitude, that you're humble enough to want to bring these people on board and say, hey, let'sโฆ let's work together, because ultimately. What you want to do, and what I want to do, is the same. It's to better people's lives and healthcare. And I often, when I'm mentoring young pharmacists or students, I say, we can never take for granted people's trust in us.
Mason:
Hmm.
Sara:
in bettering their health. And if it means that I go on and learn about integrative health, I'm willing to do so. Because at the moment, and what's happening, and I see the front line, patients are the ones trying to connect the dots, and that's not their job. You know, it'sโฆ
Mason:
Well, it's interesting because, like, say, a pharmacistโฆ Is such a specialized role, and it's almost like it's not expected of you, but for you as a human, it's expected of you to connect those dots. Which is the point. I do have a lot of empathy with people who specialize, and then, say, people on that alternative side of the fence, I think someโฆ often rightly, sometimes unreasonably, are like, well, you know, like with my mum. My mum got put on antidepressants when she was, like. 25, and then there was no plan to.
Sara:
Yeah, well, she got put on antidepressants, so I see this day in and day out. A patient comes in, looks upset, depressed, with a script for an antidepressant. And I look at this script and ask questions like, you know, what's your vitamin D level like? How much do you spend time outside? Do you train? Do you exercise? Tell me about your sleep, tell me about your gut health, you know, andโฆ quite often, the response is, not even my doctor asks me these questions, and I'm not bagging out doctors. I mean, our healthcare system is under a lot of pressure. Doctors do so much, and there's so many incredible doctors out there.
Mason:
Nope.
Sara:
But the general response I get is, you've spent more time with me than I spent in the doctor's surgery. Itโฆ I'm not against antidepressants, but I just wonder if it was another pharmacist, even, who isn't as passionate about Every single angle in that patient's healthcare, and the holistic approach, and that patient. As a whole, Sorry, excuse me one second.
Mason:
Yeah, go for it.
Sara:
Can I eat something at all? Oh, please. Thank you, I can hear it. Sorry. That's okay.
Mason:
And so, because thatโฆ the two sides of the story, I think, without taking morality and right and wrong out of it, which I think is probably the problem when morality gets into it, like, I look at my mum or your patient getting on those, it's like, well. You know, they did their job, they were specialized, they got you trained. Whether there's profit that they're getting from it, or whatever, it doesn'tโฆ like, take that morality out of it.
Sara:
Yes.
Mason:
her responsibility to take control of her life and not become dependent on a pharmaceutical. At the same time, as what you're saying, it also seems very reasonable that the person that's putting someone onto a medication asks questions first.
Sara:
And even as a pharmacist, I feel a responsibility, and I wonder if another pharmacist who isn't as passionate will ask the same questions, or maybe they are passionate, and I do believe a lot of pharmacists are passionate, but are we educating pharmacists enough? Are we talking about gut health to our pharmacists and how the microbiome works, for example? How the importance of sleep, and when you don't sleep. So I see a lot of young mums in the pharmacy, who don't sleep, and are looking after Little kids, you've got kids, you know how demanding that can be. And juggling that, so when you're not sleeping well throughout the night, you're a lot more anxious during the day. And I remember this specific case with a young mum.
he was sobbing in the pharmacy, and, you know, she probably would have qualified for an antidepressant if it was someone else, would have referred her and said, you need to speak to your doctor, perhaps, you know, it's time for an antidepressant. But I just helped her in a natural way. That woman was coming in to see me every week, to say how much I changed her life. And how thankful she is now. That'sโฆ she feels better, she's a better mom, she's a lot more active, she's sleeping better, and, you know, for me, that, yeah, it just meant the world. And, I mean, the pharmacy didn't dispense an extra strict script, but we've built that rapport, that trust. I remember at the time, actually, I gave her magnesium to support her sleep patterns, and to support the anxiety that was happening throughout the day. And I supported her with a probiotic as well.
These are the two things I gave her at the time. And look, there is, as I said. Space for pharmaceutical products, if we need them, and.
Mason:
very, like, a very big space. It's, like, very, like.
Sara:
But if we're not addressing lifestyle, I believe we are missing the point. Sleep, nutrition, movement, stressโฆ They are foundโฆ they're the foundation, aren't they? And I don't believe any supplement or medication replaces that.
Mason:
And, I mean, it's almostโฆ It's funny how you've been able to integrate it, which is something I can imagine you wouldn't have hadโฆ you had no obligation to do in the eyes of your profession. something about your profession. This is what I'm interested in, because I, again, I'mโฆ I'm very empathetic these days towards the, likewise, say, doctors or pharmacists, and likewise, how hard the alternativeโฆ some of the more extreme or indoctrinated health people are, you know, with not budging in any way, because we're justโฆ we're doing such an essential job because we're so divided at the moment, and you're getting slammed with people that have these needs, but thenโฆ That inkling that you had, like, what was that process of answering that? Because you were slammed, you've got children.
Sara:
We've got all.
Mason:
pharmacy, you hadโฆ you didn't really have to.
Sara:
Yeah.
Mason:
So why would you do that? Besides being an awesome person.
Sara:
Why wouldโฆ why would I invest time in learning about integrative health? Yeah. It's initially started at a curiosity, like, for me, but I also, asโฆ it just kind of happened here in Melbourne, in Pharmacy 777, andโฆ asโฆ we started off with, like, half a shelf of, you know, the right form of magnesium, learning about probiotics, and admittedly, like, I work with a group of people who are big on education. And, you know, like, Swarabsa would fly here from Perth, we'd hold a master class, and we would just talk about gut health. It's something that I've never experienced before as a pharmacist for 20 years. Now, one has sat me down in a room and said, let's talk about gut health. we didn't learn about it at university, and there is strong research behind it. There is so much data out there that talks about what antibiotics are doing to your gut flora?
The damage from one course could be as long as a whole year. What do we do to counteract that? I'm not saying to my patients, do not take the antibiotics. But I'm supporting them with the education and putting them on the right supplement to counteract the side effect. This is where I do believe there's a role in the system for both. And we need pharmacists to play a much bigger role in this space. But it all comes from education. At the end of the day, we're kind ofโฆ we are science-based people. We need evidence, we need data, we need studies. But I'm seeing it in live cases in my patients, you know, who have been able to treat and help, and it started off with that mum. with a young family, and now it's stemmed to, like, a huge community impact. People know us as a destination where they come to for education. For supplements that actually work.
And yeah, we are the most accessible healthcare professionals, we should never take that for granted. And that'sโฆ that's how it started. It's, I guessโฆ being in an environment that aligns with my values, and the education was provided, it created more of a curiosity for me, so even when I came across your page, I was like, oh! I want to learn more about these products. I want to know, you knowโฆ More about them, and yeah.
Mason:
Do youโฆ how much is this, in Chinese medicine and back intoโฆ further into Taoism, there'sโฆ they talk about, Fuzhong therapy, which is called Protect the Upright.
Sara:
Hmm.
Mason:
I wonder how much this is, how it's relevant to you, whereโฆ As a pharmacist. you look at, you know, like, inโฆ Fujong comes a lot from cancer treatment and oncology, and, not in Australia anymore, I'm not making this claim. This isn'tโฆ like, and then they're different products and extractions to my ones, so I'm not even promoting my ones in this instance anyway. Anyway, that's it. I gotta be careful, obviously.
Sara:
Yeah. I mean, likewise as a pharmacist as well, yeah.
Mason:
So, like, in Japan, they'll have, like, the chemo and the radio going, and then they'll have reishi on the side, or in other places, they'll have turkey tail on the side, and they'll call that the fuzhong, and we're gonna use herbs to protect the upright qi so that the body is able to continue to bring itself into healing and harmony. So for you in the pharmacy. Was it a little bit of that where you're like. I'mโฆ I want to be really bang on with what we're prescribing and creating for, well, I don't know if the prescriptions areโฆ how much prescribing do you do, and how much is it, like, through the.
Sara:
Weโฆ yeah, well, majority is from the doctor. Increased scope of practice has just happened, really, but the last couple of years, we've been prescribing for urinary tract infections, and for just sort of things. So now for the oral contraceptive pill. not much prescribing, like what happens in the UK, but we are heading that way. Prescribing and integrative health, you've got to get, you know, the right training, and the right support, and I'm enrolled in ACM at the moment. So, which would allow me to specialize even in specific areas in that space, soโฆ but to answer your question, I think I'mโฆ I'm going to answer it that way. For example, when I have a patient who's highly anxious and is struggling with mental health and chopping and changing with medications, I guessโฆ That opens up the conversation in talking about, lifestyle, as well as supplements. Andโฆ
and we've seen a difference, you know, with the Chinese herbal medicines that we're prescribing in these patients. And I either follow up, call them, or ask them to come back in. But yeah, you do need specific training, and you need to understand them, and you also need to make sure, like, to bridge that gap. We need to also, again, back to safety, making sure that there's no interaction, that the patient is safe. And, and education. Education is everything.
Mason:
I mean, that'sโฆ and that's an interesting thing to see, whereโฆ as you said, like, you know, a specific herb like turmeric, which has been isolated from a herbal system, has come, and it's got all the accolades on it, and the problem is, and the thing that I'veโฆ like, had to essentially, like, resist, even though I don't really resist it, butโฆ and none of my team pushed for it. It's like, there's a large market cap for this product, so let's get as many claims as we can, and as many, activations from a patient to use it if they think about this, this, and this, but you've already taken it out of the system. And so now you've taken it out of the system, you've taken it away from the nuance of whether it's too drying, and the interactions, etc, that it's going to have. Therefore, someone's like, oh, damn it, I can't have turmeric. It's like.
Sara:
Yeah, and you know what? It surprised me as well, andโฆ And that's why I wanted to ask you, how do you make sure people are safe when they're already on medication?
Mason:
Wellโฆ Yeah, I mean, and in the Taoist tradition, that's why we sitโฆ like, if you're a TCM practitioner, and it's interesting seeing, like, even a lot of, like, TCM practitioners and herbalists within some pharmacies around, and naturopaths, definitely, they'll understand that, alright, I can't use that herb, but I want this general nourishing activity, and it's very different. For me, we're just in that Fujiang We're just helping the body stay harmonious, so there are some very innocuous, you know, mushrooms, quite often, you know, besides maybe reishi with thinning of blood, and so on, a few other things, they're often very general and non-interactive, and everyone can check, drugs.com. For individual mushrooms and herbs.
Sara:
Right?
Mason:
And that's pretty well covered in terms of all the current data of the interactions.
Sara:
Yep.
Mason:
If youโฆ if we find that, herbs to drying, and you're like, damn it, I really thought I, you know, it was going to be that mushroom that was going to be the one. It's like, it's not about the mushroom. It's about the system and nourishing the body, so there's a similar activity that can go on if we have, like, a yin tonic that's more blood nourishing, that isn't going to have that counterโฆ it's still going to get the general same effect of nourishing the body, and that's how we go about it, and that's what's been the slow creep for me. is teaching that Taoist philosophy, butโฆ better with turmeric, it would be very easy to be like, what's our intention here? Well, we're just going to pivot over here, over to this formula, and that's going to generally get what youโฆ what you want anyway.
Sara:
So, are there any people that you think should be more cautious with these products?
Mason:
When someone's on pharmaceuticals, we say. You'reโฆ you're in a different territory than what we'reโฆ you know, we're not here to talk to youโฆ like, youโฆ when you go and talk to, like, an oncologist about mushrooms, they now, most of the time, or theโฆ or the cancer dietitian, will have allโฆ everything at their disposal to go and check which herbs and mushrooms are going to cause complications, or even they're like, there's just not quite enough data corroborated for us toโฆ really be comfortable that it's not going to interfere. But they have, like, my, my stepdad. went through bowel cancer and went through chemo, and when he ran through the herbs that he wanted to be taking, he took two off the list and then said, well, if you could really do turkey tail instead, that would be really good, and was able to give me that information. So, that's whereโฆ it's Fujiang, and that'sโฆ
I was interested, you've got the gut there as, like. And I find itโฆ it's really so obvious, but people don't get it. Like, as a pharmacist, even whether you're prescribing or, not fulfilling, what's the word, whenโฆ
Sara:
Filling a script, or, yeah, dispensing a script, yep.
Mason:
You are stillโฆ your job is still to formulate it, or, you know, like, create it, soโฆ
Sara:
Yeah, yeah, like, we even checked that where thisโฆ like, we literally, checking for interactions, as well as that we're checking it's the right dose, thatโฆ for the patient, for the weight, whatever it may be. There's been times when I've rang the doctor because they're overdosing a child. So yeah, we're just as liable.
Mason:
And that, I mean, and that's, I mean, that's one as well, like, I know, like, so manyโฆ Complications even leading up to death come from, like, labeled, label dosed, and, you know, that's anotherโฆ that's another thing, butโฆ
Sara:
Yep.
Mason:
I'm in the alternative world.
Sara:
I'm interested to know how you see the integration with pharmacists what you see the integration looks like with pharmacists and GPs, like, what's your vision?
Mason:
exactly what you were just, like, I kind of was trying to get there in the end, where you're like, you've got your obligation and you take it very seriously. Thenโฆ you're likeโฆ and thenโฆ there's what's going to make this an effective process for you. We're taking the drug, which, again, I mean, I've been saved by taking doxy when I was bitten by a tick and was going down hard, and I couldn't get on top of it with herbs and all those things, and I'm like, like, oh my god. Thank goodness for just how incredible we are as humans to be able to develop these things. But Then, at the same time, you're like, no, the responsibility's on me that this person is going to be, like, using appropriately, because otherwise we areโฆ I don't see drugs as unnatural in any way, I don't think we can really create anything unnatural. That's me getting very macro Daoic.
Sara:
I justโฆ 100%, look, good healthcare isn't about audiology, it's about the outcome for each patient, right? And, like, for me, I don'tโฆ I'm not here to choose sides between natural and pharmaceutical. But I think it's very important that we support whatever people choose, and that they're doing it safely, they understand it, and it actually improves their overall health.
Mason:
Well, and then that comes back to extremism, and that's whatโฆ that's the same in Taoism. It's like, an excess of something isโฆ not acceptable, andโฆ because that's not in harmony, and nor a deficiency of anything, and then we just need to keep on changing, and soโฆ that's where Iโฆ I mean, it'sโฆ and it's likewise for me. I'veโฆ thankfully, I've always been good at this, of realizing, even though I would get, you know, I would get sent questions, with people's medical, you know, like, conditions, and they'd be like, oh, my doctor's telling me this, what do you think I should do, Mason? I'm like, oh my god, this is soโฆ out. This is so inappropriate, like, I can'tโฆ I couldn't ever possibly. But nonetheless, they were approaching me on Instagram.
Sara:
Yeah, and it's great that you are approachable, and it's great also to understand what our limits are, and the parameters, and be humble enough to acknowledge that, because ultimately, we're both thinking about the safety of that patient and the outcome. And we want the best for that patient, and it's not about product sales, because when you lose that trust with one person. It's not great for business anyway.
Mason:
Well then, in answering your question, what I did represent to them was if you're getting sick, obviously I'm needing to work on some, integration of my own systems and the capacity for my organs to keep me well. And when I talk to my doctor about what else I need to be doing in order to not just take these drugs or takeโฆ have this surgery to get better. what are my otherโฆ what are my next steps? And they didn't know how to ask me that, even though that's what they meant. They didn't want me to be a doctor. They wantedโฆ and so that's where I do pivot, and I'm like, listen, and this is where we meet In the middle, but there'sโฆ
it's, again, tokenistic in terms of what can you handle adding in that's going to, like, be clinically proven to increase your ability in, let's say, the Fujiang, to protect the upright qi of your body, so your body actually has the ability to Bring anything up, and bring whatever metabolic capacity you need to heal, and take advantage of that gift of the surgery if needed, or the drug, or the intervention, and then start making sure that this is where you're in that weird situation, pharmacists and GPs, where majority of our society is like, I'm looking at you, and you're the one that has to bridge me over and tell me it's okay for me to start adding these things in that are going to help me just, like, build up so I have less and less reliance. And I guess that'sโฆ
that's where I see the GP integration occurring is especially bridging over, say, a herbal philosophy and an entire framework that's delivered in a way which is going to be able to be easily adopted and then be, digestible to, like, the everyday Aussie.
Sara:
Yeah, 100%. I think you've just really summed it up really well, that we need to be able to collaborate and work together, and not be set in just one Just looking at it fromโฆ one angle. It'sโฆ Toโฆ to have better patient outcome. Andโฆ to support them, we need to come together, and work together, and learn from each other. And this is where I'm constantly talking about skill stacking for me as a pharmacist, but also working in collaboration with other people that are going to help my patient. You know, whether it be yourself, whether it be a yoga instructor, whether it be the GP, I think they're all important.
Mason:
Skill stacking, I like.
Sara:
I love skill stacking, I'm always likeโฆ I built my own website, I called that skill stacking.
Mason:
Did you really? We'll add that in there. Did you get much resistance? I mean, like, is thisโฆ was this approach of yours what got you that Pharmacist of the Year last year, or is it other, was it otherโฆ
Sara:
I've always believed in remaining humble, and always believed in, growth, where, yeah, I thrive on challenge, so Iโฆ just a curious mind since a young age, and I think the belief, because When we came here as refugees and literally had nothing. And I was bullied, and bashed, and couldn't speak the language, and we left everything behind. My dad used to say, knowledge is the only thing that no one can take away from you, you can lose it all. And it's so true, so books became my best friends, and it gave me that kind of lifeline in a way, and I just wanted to read and read and read and learn. It's thatโฆ it's the fact that I thrive on human connection. I love giving. I love helping. I want to support everyone, and I honestly do not ever take for granted people's trust, whether it's my team, in my leadership, whether it's my kids, whether it's my patients, you know, whenโฆ
And at times, that can be taxing, because you're constantly giving of yourself, and this is why it's important that I have, along the way, recognized what I need. You know, what I value, you know, like, I crave the sound of the birds in the morning, and being in my Pilates studio, and being out in nature, like, I just love that. I thinkโฆ I won Pharmacist of the Year very unexpectedly last year. When I got the call about being Victorian Pharmacist of the Year, I remember just crying in my car, not being able to say much, aside from the fact, can my kids come too? You know, it was an incredibly humbling moment, but it alsoโฆ Like, was really nice, because it hasn't been easy. having the drive I have in terms of growth, career aspirations. being there for my community, as well as raising two kids on my own, and working the hours I work. It has beenโฆ
there have been many times where it's been hard, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. Yeah, people know me now as the Australian Pharmacist of the Year, butโฆ I openly talk about the struggles and the hardship and, you know, having to reinvent myself, whether as a refugee who's fled war and left everything she loved behind despite the war, or even as a single parent who's gone through divorce and have had some tough times, whether it's be mentally, emotionally, financially, you know, and I thinkโฆ When your intentions, likeโฆ the intention is to better people's health, one patient at a time, and the intention is to support my community, and I'll put myself out there. I will be out there to take healthcare to where people are, and be a part of my community. People see that. Andโฆ then I wasโฆ you know, I said it the other day, I was on a panel, and I said, I'll never take for grantedโฆ
The opportunity to have a voice and to speak. where there would be a room of 5 people, 200 people, 1,000 people. For me, they're all valuable, because there was a time when I didn't have a voice. There was a time when I hid who I really was, didn't talk, I think, because of you know, the trauma of being bullied, or discriminated against, or being told you will never make it. And soโฆ yeah, I think getting Victorian Pharmacist of the Year, being on stage, speaking about my journey, and my love and passion forโฆ our, you know, community, for the patients, for the Australian healthcare system. I want to make a positive impact. I'm really driven to help as many people as I can, but I'm also driven to build a legacy, to leave the world in a better place. To build leaders around me who are empowered with knowledge. I thrive on seeing people doing well. And, yeah, that kind ofโฆ
I think they gave me the platform to share my journey, and it kind of was like, yeah, from there it was one award after another, which was extremely humbling and beautiful. The mayor the other day said. And we need to nominate you for the Collaboration Award for the Maryback Council, because the way you collaborate with everyone, even outside of the health industry, is commandable, and I just thought, oh my god, I don'tโฆ I don't wantโฆ you knowโฆ I mean, it's humbling, but I just thought, you know, like, I just wannaโฆ I just wannaโฆ help my community and as many people as possible. So, yeah.
Mason:
I think in this community, like, for the listeners on this podcast, and everyone within, where the Supervis crosses over, I think everyoneโฆ really appreciates what it takes to, as you said, kind of, like, reinvent land on your feet in an integrated way that is still somewhat genuine, and be able to maintain a shift inโฆ withโฆ and move ahead with curiosity, which are several qualities you've talked about. And you talked about intent andโฆ and, I guess, like, a service of the community, andโฆ And I think a lot of peopleโฆ but that'sโฆ We appreciate howโฆ difficult, I guess, it is to actually do that and go through that integration, soโฆ
Sara:
Yeah.
Mason:
Is there anotherโฆ say, if you're, like, you know, getting into the grit, or even, like, you know, where you don't mindโฆ I might not have quite the words for it, even because we like word salads, is there anotherโฆ nuanced quality you feel that everyone could listen, you know, like, could really take in, that wouldโฆ helped you kind of get through and integrate through those periods and land throughโฆ land on your feet? Because a lot of people get trapped in ideology and comfort, and they stop being curious, and they get.
Sara:
Yeah, I think just understanding yourself, and understanding who you are, andโฆ I think something I always talk about is make sure you're in an environment and around people that align with your values, because thatโฆ is hard. Finding that can be hard. It can sometimes take years, takes courage. And it also comes down to us understanding ourselves, and we evolve in time. My needs 5 years ago are different to my needs now. My definition of success has really changed, and the people I want around me have evolved and changed as well, so just recognizing the phase of life you're in. and who you are, and being kind to yourself when things don't go your way. I feel like it took me years toโฆ really justโฆ get to that state in a way, but I'm also still, I'll still understand that I'm evolving and changing, andโฆ
Yeah, it's hard at times, to be honest with you, to slow down and have the moment to actually ground yourself and think, I live in Melbourne, very fast-paced. I think we spoke about that last time I spoke to you. It'sโฆ it's a rat race. It's fast-paced. I have meetings most nights, after work. If I'm not in a meeting, then I'mโฆ I'm running around with my kids, andโฆ Iโฆ I find it, as much as I love what I do and how driven I am, at times it gets overwhelming and too much. So, yeah, listening to the birds in the morning, being out in nature, recognizing that I need that. I need that quiet. I need to train. And just making sure we do it. Prioritize your health. Andโฆ does it sound cliche to say that? Because your health isn't just about taking your supplements. It's about that quiet moment, going for that walk on your own, if that's what you need. That's prioritizing your health.
Yeah, I hope that answers the question.
Mason:
Oh, no, I was like, I'm not gonna have time to talk about that healing of the healer, which you brought up, and you just brought it into land right there.
Sara:
And we're healing every day, we're healing. I had a stressful night last night, and I can tell you, because Iโฆ recognize what I need. I was up to one, because I was stressed about a project, I was working on documents. That's a lot of brain power. Like, that's more exhausting than physical labor at times. And I've been able toโฆ This morning, ground myself, I had my mushroom drink. I was out in nature, I listened to the birds. I sat down in the quiet, I did my Pilates, and I felt like I started my day in the most beautiful way. It justโฆ It means you bring your best self forward. It means whatever comes your way in a challenging situation, whether it be at work, or at home, or with your kids, or your partner. I think you face it differently, andโฆ
Mason:
Love it. It's so good. It's really inspiring. I mean, as you said, it's like, you know, we come back and it's always the sameโฆ it's always the same message.
Sara:
Yeah, yeah.
Mason:
you've gotโฆ yeah, you're really embodied and experienced in how you share it, so I think that's reallyโฆ it's not cliche, which is reallyโฆ it's reallyโฆ
Sara:
I, I say thisโฆ to even my staff. You know, they ask me why I pray. And I said, you know, I think if we think about it like this, it doesn't have to be prayer, it could be meditation, it could be just sitting out in nature and having a quiet moment. Whatever feeds your soul. You gotta feed your soul. You gotta feed your brain with knowledge. You gotta feed your stomach with food, right? So, I think respecting and understanding each parts of your body goes a long way.
Mason:
I want to make sureโฆ I need a pharmacist one that Like, goodโฆ
Sara:
I'm quite soulful. I love science. I was called the chemistry queen at uni, and maths is one of my favorite subjects. And then I have a deep soul. What an odd combination. Talk about being a complicated woman.
Mason:
Oh, I mean, and that's the best type of complication that you could ever possibly, want. It's like, yeah, I, like, what is it, oh, I say it all the time, the Scott F. Fitzgerald quote, that, you know, the sign of true intelligence is, holding two opposing ideas in the mind at the same time, and still functioning.
Sara:
I love that!
Mason:
It's my favorite thing ever, you know? It's like, it doesn't matter what terminology you use, everyone kind of knows what you mean by soul, even if you get out of, like, you know, ideology, or, you know, literal, it's like, or, you know, it's immeasurable, it's illogical, there's something moreโฆ
Sara:
It's logical! It's like my idea of running a huge business and building multiple different companies and things like that, and then leading with heart.
Mason:
Yeah. And then, well, you have intention. Where does that intention come from?
Sara:
Yeah, it's like, I want to lead with heart, I don't want to change that. I want to, you knowโฆ that's who I am, and I'm not gonna change that, and I'm so adamant to not.
Mason:
I love it, and then there's the reality of things like chemistry, andโฆ
Sara:
Or reading P\&Ls, it's not myโฆ Love maths, but I hate reading P\&Ls.
Mason:
I'm in aโฆ I'm in a P\&L pickle at the moment with myself, because I hate whatโฆ I hate reading them, and I'm getting thatโฆ I'm getting that karmic lesson. You can do it, mate. It's just something that'll happen if you don't look at it. I love it. Oh, it's been such a pleasure.
Sara:
We've gotโฆ
Mason:
I'm gonna pop your website in the show notes there, but I believe that's just saramurdock.com.
Sara:
Correct, yes. If you are happy to share my Instagram, I probably check that more than I check myโฆ my website, but yeah, it's the.sarah.murdoch.
Mason:
Yeah, definitely, and you're active on Instagram, you know, funโฆ
Sara:
I love Instagram, you know? I enjoy Instagram because it shows my creative side. I've always loved photography, decorating, yeah, I've got a creative side to me, and Instagram has just allowed me to showcase that.
Mason:
I love it. Yeah, and anyone, whatever projects, especially if you're on that integrative, bend, everybody, you can see what, like, where Sarah comes from. So, yeah, if you've got any events or anything like that, you can see that might be, you know, Sarah might be interesting to get in touch with.
Sara:
Absolutely, yes, please get in touch.
Mason:
Yeah, the curiosity-led. Thank you so much, I hope youโฆ
Sara:
Thank you for having me, this has been incredible. I enjoyed our first conversation, and I enjoyed this one even more, and Iโฆ I think this is, gonna be a long-term collaboration partnership. Hopefully, we see everyone come together.
Mason:
Yeah, I want to come down to Melbourne soon as well, so it'll be great to come and say hello, andโฆ
Sara:
Yeah, sounds great.
Mason:
Thank you so much.
Sara:
Thank you.
