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If youโve been here for a while, you know my whole focus is on returning to the roots of a pathโan integrated, no-nonsense approach that actually holds up in the modern world. This conversation with Clarissa Gunawan goes straight to the core of a practice weโre all doing anyway, every single night: dreaming.
We move well beyond the new-age, โsuperhero powersโ version of lucid dreaming I experimented with in my twenties, and land firmly in the grounded, embodied terrain of Daoist dream work. Clarissa lays out why this isnโt abstract or esoteric fluff; itโs a non-negotiable tool for self-realization, for recalibrating the day, andโultimatelyโfor preparing for a โgood death.โ
We dig into the massive cultural blind spot around dreams and why getting your view right is the most important part of the path. If youโre ready to dissolve the imagined split between day and night and start perceiving your inner landscape with real clarity, this episode is for you.
Episode Highlights:
- [00:00:50] The Power of the Innate Dreaming is as natural as breathing. In Daoism, the best practice is the one you already doโdream. If you think you don't dream, youโre just not catching them yet.
- [00:03:30] The Hun, The Po, and Peter Pan Syndrome We explore the Hun spirit and Po souls in Chinese medicine, and how imagination in the dreamscape creates experiences that are real in their impact, regardless of what science can measure.
- [00:17:50] The Primacy of "View" Your view of realityโlinear and material or circular and interconnectedโdetermines the outcome of your dream practice. Ego-driven views create controlling dreams; Daoist views allow relaxation, non-duality, and true realization.
- [00:11:37] Beyond Lucid Dreaming Instead of chasing ego-boosting lucid dreams, the Daoist path is about relaxing into the dream to realize your true spirit and self-arising nature.
- [00:02:45] You Are Your Own Expert The core practice is simply writing your dreams downโevery day. This builds your personal dream dictionary and symbolic language unique to you.
- [00:30:30] Ancestors, Deities, and Symbols Ancestors, sages, and deities often appear as powerful symbols that help you perceive deeper layers of your genetic and evolutionary path.
- [00:33:00] The Dreamer as Authority Dream work is a shamanic path where you are the ultimate authority. Universal symbols exist, but your consistent dream log becomes the map of your unique cosmology.
Start a Dream Log: Get a journal and keep it by your bed. Write down the first thing you remember upon wakingโa feeling, a color, a single word. Every morning, without fail. This is the simple barrier to entry.
Examine Your View: Before you go to sleep, take a moment to reflect on your foundational view of reality. Are you approaching this as a linear, material quest for self-improvement, or as a circular, non-dual path of realization? The intention you set will shape the dream.
Prepare the Body: As Clarissa points out, stop eating heavy food late at night (no 11 PM pizza!). Give your organs a rest so your dreams are about spirit and path, not just digesting salami. Resources
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Check Out The Transcript Below:
Mason:
Exactly., Yeah, I've just kind of like, you know, I had a lot of energy around this when I was in my mid twenties and, you know, it's like very kind of like a cool thing, almost like a superhero power to like accumulate rather than something that really weaves in to like that slow patient practical cultivation and also appropriate to where I'm at life. Mm-hmm. And so it's been really nice leading up to this conversation to ease back into the. Just the comprehension of that practice and feeling how that practice, the sleep practice relates to, you know, myself and the mm-hmm. You know, the other cultivation work. So Yeah. I can, um, so I kind and you, for you living in it, it's such a huge practice to hold. Yeah.
Clarissa:
Yeah. And I think the, the thing is like. We are always practicing it. That's what I love about dream practice is you, you are doing it anyway. Every human being and, and, and we know now lots of animals. There's been like, you know, those YouTube clips of octopus dreaming? I don't know if you've seen that.
Mason:
No. Can you tell me about that? But their
Clarissa:
brainwaves, like, they've just tracked that octopus's dream and I can send you the link to that. Um, but basically a lot of animals dream as we, it, it should be no surprise, but I think dream practice is one of those things that. I love because it's like a lot of Asian wisdom traditions. The thing that you work with best is the thing that you do. Anyway, you have no choice in the matter, like breathing, which is what, what meditation is about eating, like, which is the nutrition, um, elements of life and dreaming. 'cause we all already do it unwillingly or we're not like, you know, it's not something that you have to work hard at and you're just dreaming anyway. And, and there are some people that report that they don't dream and we cover that. In the course. 'cause my teachering talks about that as kind of like sleep disorders. Um, is one of them is that you don't dream.
But actually more often than not it's that you don't remember your dream rather than you are not dreaming. 'cause every human being actually dreams
Mason:
does that even people don't dream and they go through the, the, the process with you. Do they start being able to remember their dreams?
Clarissa:
Yeah, there's been a few in class, I mean, in every. Class, we, we spend like an hour talking about dreams and there are some, there has been, I think one or two students that have reported they don't dream and, and always their recommendation is like, if you think you don't dream, then just start dreaming during wake life. Because waking life is also a dream.
Mason:
What is it also like the patterns of how you feel after, after like, like after you're asleep. Like that kind of like even just kind of getting into the perception, um, you know, like maybe, maybe it isn't a visual remembering. Mm-hmm. Maybe it's a like
Clarissa:
a feeling. Feeling. Yeah. Yeah. It, it, whatever, whatever it is that you remember in the morning. It could be a feeling, it could be like a word. Some people are more verbal and they don't German images. It could be like a color. Like what do you, anything that you remember at all. If you write it down in the morning, it builds that discipline and it, it wakes up the hun spirit in dreaming so that you can remember it better the next morning. Yeah.
Mason:
Um, as everyone listening, I'm sure they, they love, you know, the capacity to come in completely unstructured. So I'm gonna bounce around to a few hours Cross talk: right now. Yes, please. But you're bringing up the, um, just even bringing up the horn for, um, when, uh, like what, what is, like, as I told you, like my teacher Italy's got a book, um, on, I don't know what, which book? I think it's like book nine of his. Book 13 of his, gosh, vividly the artist sleep. So I've just kind of been having a look at it this morning, but it's like when the yang dominates the yin, when the hun dominates the poor souls or something along those lines like, and I kind of, I've, you know, I was like. And I know that's the general, um, direction of cultivation, but do you, do you go in and teach about the HUN and the PO and um, that process of maybe for a Western mind to practically engage?
Um, which Yes. Yeah.
Clarissa:
Yeah. Yeah, I actually co-teach with um, Aaron Langley, who's an acupuncturist. So I'm not a trained acupuncturist, but a lot of the students in our class are acupuncturists because it offers the CE points for California or whatever states in America, not in Australia. But yes, we go through the five spirits, so hin, gpo, and not in that much detail, but the first weekend is about dreaming and healing. So it is about how dreams can. Show you if you are, if one of those spirits are unseated or out of balance, and how to kind of, we go through some practices of just how to feel them, like which part of the organ are they in? Um, and that primarily it's the hun spirit that flies off to dream like it. That's the spirit that. At that moment of death, like it goes upwards. Um, and some of our spirits go back down to the Earth. Some of them go up to heaven.
And Ho is the, is the Peter Pan, you know, so it's the one that flies off and has all these adventures and dreamings and then comes back when we wake up into our bodies. Yeah,
Mason:
I think that was the first thing that attracted me to Chinese medicine, um, was that learning about the, um, or learning about the, um, the Chen. But especially about that, the, the healthy horn and the capacity for the horn to fly because I've, you know, I self-diagnose with Peter Pan syndrome and love that. That's why I love Hook. Like my 40th next year is gonna be hook themed. 'cause I kind of see this time of life as like, when. You know, I've like, I've lost myself. I've been a little boy. I've lost myself in the real world and become a pirate. Then I've gone back and integrated that memory and that dreaming and that imagination, and that imagination is real. But is it real? Is it like, I love that movie to be like, well, hang on. What was that real? Hang on. SMEs. Now a guy bottle, like sweeping bottles in the street, was Smmi real? Was this all a part of his imagination?
And you're like, yeah, it is. And it, and it was real because he actually transformed through that experience. It doesn't matter whether it was a metaphorical dreaming, um, something a hundred percent.
Clarissa:
Yeah. Yeah. That's such an interesting point you bring up about what is real and not real because. One of the things that, um, my teacher always says is, you know, that that thing that we say to children when they have a nightmare and, and we say, don't worry, it's not real. It's just a dream. Like I try really hard not to say that to my kids because I mean, I think you and I both know that what is real in our over culture and modernization are in this. Patriarchy is like what science can hold and touch. And that's not all that's real actually. That that dreams can recalibrate the day and the day can recalibrate the night. And that's the whole point of dream practice that I love is that you, you start to see the dissolution of that duality of day and night.
And of course we live in the dual world and there's always gonna be day and there's always gonna be night, but dream practice shows us or is like one of those ways that we can see that actually. Even in, in the non-dual realm, there's always the, uh, sorry. Even in the dual realm, there's always the non-dual realm.
Mason:
So
Clarissa:
both things are always happening. Yeah.
Mason:
Yeah. I mean, that's a funny, that's an interdimensional kind of Daoist reality, which is why I find it, you know, Daoists and anyone who's steeped in, um, uh, a tradition who's got the capacity to remain within its roots, um, and go back to its roots, but also apply it practically, which is all like, is like why I, why I was attracted to Dao and why. I'm attracted to anyone who's on an integrated path, you know, that lives in the modern and transforms into the modern and practically applies the core intention. And they know the core intention 'cause it goes back to the roots. And it's always a very practical one around nature and human health and community health. Um, and also probably, you know, like, it's funny, I was like, you know, the dreaming such a concerted effort it seems, and maybe an unintentional one, um, to just PPO dream work. So.
Quickly in the modern world, like, just like, it's so amazing that that would be something that is like plowed over by a scientist. Um, to the extent where I'm kind of like, you know, I was thinking, you know, we've got a lot of, lately it's like a lot of, you know, we've got oncologists, we've got a lot of like practitioners like, you know, on this podcast. And I was like, oh yeah, of course. Let's talk about dreams. And then I was like thinking this morning, God, that's, I was thinking, I'm actually feeling a bit self-conscious about talking about it because I'll be like, this is a new age. And I, and I actually do believe that one of the curses of New Age is that a lot of the time they don't have root in original intent. Um, but why I do love approaching it from, in any integrated path, but especially the path of the, the Dao, um, is that.
This is something that everyone does, you might as well engage with it. Um, but yeah, the, the whole, that, that's not real. It just brought up just how much of a blind spot we still have about, 'cause that was something that I think I'd default to. Not really, but like my, I would immediately default to like soothing my daughter if she's, it's like a program.
Clarissa:
Yeah, because it makes it like, it's, it makes sense to say like, that's something uncomfortable. So don't believe that it's real. But I think we do our, our kids and ourselves a disservice when we, when we do that, actually e even in the, you know, in the Daoist dream practice that I've been taught in that lineage, it's all about if you have something scary chasing you in your dream, which we all have had this, this type of dream. Don't keep running away. It's because what we need to build in the dream, which is such a dynamic environment that, as I said, can recalibrate the day, is that we can practice different bodies or different um. Mentalities are different mental strengths. So even if you're scared during waking life of something that is dark and chasing you, maybe in the dream you can call on something.
Like, I actually tell my son who's way into Pokemon, he loves Pokemon, so he's always so, I always encourage him to like, if you're scared in the dream still try to turn around and stop running and see what's chasing you because. A lot of the, um, uh, people that talk about their dreams and they do turn around it, it's actually just like an ancestor or like a grandmother that wants to tell you something and it, it, it, maybe it comes in the form of whatever is scary to you, like a monster. But then if you can see more detail and you can. Build up that courage in the dream to turn around and ask, okay, what is it that's chasing me? And I've done that. And it was a little girl actually, which was me, um, and the little girl.
And you can, you can see, I love how you can see all these things like in movies, like why dolls are scary in, in some scary movies or Little girls are scary because they probably come from dreaming and, and that that person's, you know, the director or author of that movie. Has had that dream of being chased by something that's not really scary, but they've turned around and seen what it is and what they want. But yeah, with the Pokemon one, I've just, uh, told my son like. Bring out all your Pokemons in the dream if you're scared, like, because they can help you. It's similar to having a power animal, right? Like in the indigenous, um, communities and what, sorry, Tanya and I went through in the shamanic woman craft, it's like it makes a huge difference to call in a power animal because that's what they're there for. And it doesn't mean they're not real. It's very real, actually.
The strength that they give you. So, yeah. Okay.
Mason:
Do people just quickly go when they talk about your work? They're like, oh, yeah, yeah. You're talking about like just like a lucid dreaming, um, kind of practice and how is that? Um, and maybe yes, and then that's a very appropriate way to, um, but I feel like that's become something like lucid dreaming, especially with the new age has become something which is almost seems a bit more simple than, um, than what we're talking about here. But I guess it comes from like, what, what's the point of this? Like what's the intention, you know, of, of this in terms of. General health, psychological health, and then 'cause that like, you know, on that, on that like Ming go side of things, of that general health. And then where does it start crossing over into the shing go of like cultivation of like, of true reality or you know, your one's true reality.
Is there a, is there a difference in that or is it all kind of bundled up in the same?
Clarissa:
No, definitely like, definitely as in, as with all Dao, I think practices, it is very similar to that. Like in the beginning, the, the dream practice is about, you know, illness, which is what's right in front of you, like your body. You have to have the right body and you have to know how to enter into dreaming. You don't wanna be eating pizza at 11:00 PM you know, because those dreams that you have is just digesting that pizza. And you might have a nightmare then, but it's not from your ancestors, it's from your organs trying to be like, there's too much salami. So definitely there's that, what you refer to as kind of the more surface level. And then it goes into like shamanic dreaming, um, which is more into the symbols, like how do we get through? The content of the dream, because it's not supposed to be psychoanalysis. How do we attach to just the symbols?
Because then life becomes about symbols. So if you see a bear in the dream and then someone, um, walks into your practice with a bear cardigan tracing that symbol from the day to the night, so that then becomes dream as practice as a path. So, uh. It, it ultimately, the fruition of dream practice in this lineage is a dissolution of day and night. And the reason why we want that is so that we can continue life as a con continuity so that we're not. Dualistic. So it is still very, um, dream practice as a path to spiritual fruition, and that's the path to it. Um, but you start with of course, with the dream and illness and then, um, go with shamanic dreaming and then it's path dreaming, which is that whole, how do we just trace the symbols and actually go. Um, start like dis dissolving that duality.
And then the last weekend is actually dream and death practice because that is the ultimate like, and I know everyone gets really excited about dream and death practice and they all, they all wanna do like the last weekend because, um, and I'm gonna go back to your question about lucid dreaming because that's actually the fourth weekend, which is path dreaming and death practice. Those are the things that people are interested in originally because. Um, it's the sexiest ones and there was like, you know, a lucid dreaming movement in the sixties and seventies. And I think though that my teacher talks about that as too much biting down on something and you're kind of using the view of the day and imposing that onto the night. Like lucid dreaming is a little bit too intense because you're not relaxing into the dream. You're actually trying to propel your ego into the nighttime.
So a lot of people wanna. Wanna do it to control what they're doing during the day or to get more wealthy or to have, find a partner or like these, all these objectives are wake time objectives and in the dream we have to recalibrate actually our eyes because they're very different. Um, so the path dreaming that we go, we, we go through is actually about that. It's actually about, um, lucid dreaming. Yes, there is a part of lucid dreaming, but it's actually in a relaxation into it. So. It's a relaxation into it, and we teach them skills as to how, um, how to practice that. But we don't want it to become a disorder, which it can be a disorder as well. Lucid dreaming could be a pathology if you can't, um, go back to sleep or you're staying awake all the time, which is like you're staying awake during the day and in the dream you're also staying awake, like you're not relaxing into that. Um.
Uh, healing or rest and digest part of your body. So we really don't recommend kind of the lucid dreaming way of doing things, but the relaxing into path dreaming, which is different, but similar.
Mason:
Ah, I mean, like, I, like I really appreciate the way that you've talked about that. I mean, I really relate. Kinda like really enjoying in my twenties. You know, you guys, you know, as, you know, as is the way you kind of like have like a bit of, a bit more of an immortality intention, which is all about like superhero powers in the twenties. And that's cool. And um, however, I kind of, after a while, you know, experiencing a bit myself, um, but I always look around. My thing is always look around that people have been on a, a particular sliver of a tradition, say in lucid dreaming in, um, England. So like that, that, as you're saying like that. Active engagement, um, and maneuvering within the dreamscape and doing cool shit and seemingly accumulating cool skills. Um, and I watch the mannerisms, I watch over some time the way that they've, you know, engaged with the world.
And that's how, and then I go, that's my, that's my crystal ball. Is that something I value? Do I feel like that makes me more innately myself? And then that, but that I just remember clearly that was one of the ones of when I met a few people and that, and, and likewise since then, meeting a lot of people who have started to engage with that and maybe life is feeling a little bit dull. And so that's making them feel very, you know, very special and going and, and which is, can be a beautiful little gem for a short amount of time. I do. I appreciate that. But yeah, I've, I guess I, now I'm realizing that's why I kind of feel like maybe I'd put that Dr like the depth of the dream work to the side a little bit more completely, because maybe I had that as, um, you know, well since then I've learned more about what the path is.
But talking to you, I realize I've just, maybe that's where a lot of my aversion of really engaging with the sleep practices has come from.
Clarissa:
Yeah, definitely. And, and totally we can see that because it's the. View of our modern culture. So I always say this word view, and I think it's really important, like the first hour of the first course. And in every, every looming course, it's like how do we get to the right view? Because, and this was a concept that I think, um, it was a Che and Tibet that came up with it, view, method and fruition. So whatever view you have. And the method that you practice, that view with leads to the fruition, the fruition is automatic. So it, it's always important for modern people to reflect on our view. So similar to like. What we were talking about here.
If the, um, view is that life is material, um, time is linear, that we need to, we're in this kind of Judeo-Christian journey to goodness, like we've fallen into sin and then we need to get better and better at something and we need to heal something in ourselves, then, then you, you use dream practice with that view, which is what most of us. Have been educated in, um, then it leads to like strenuous dreaming and getting what you want in the dream world because you, you'll get that fruition if you practice the view. But if the view is that time is circular, there is no. Um, there's no original sin that there is no getting, there's a Beginningless beginning, which is, uh, Taoism, right.
We, that, that we're comfortable with the, I don't know that we're, we're a collection of spirits and we're not one, I'm not Clarissa, I'm not an abiding self, but I'm actually the five spirits temporarily here, and then we, I will disperse at my time of death. Like if we use that view, then we use dream practice. For the fruition of dissolving the night and day so that we can practice what our spirit actually is during the night and, and during the day. And then somehow that will help us at the time of death to realize that death is just another dream, it's another transition just as life is another dream. So a lot of the a, a aeps at dream practice. And we don't know this for sure, obviously, but at their time of death, this is where the rainbow body comes from and all of that.
They are practicing dreaming, and they're practicing lucid dreaming or path dreaming, and they're realizing, and it can be any symbol, like, I wanna open this door, so I wanna open this door. Instead of going back to Samara, I wanna open a different, so that's the intent of having agency, even in the dream world, is not to make yourself. Have all the fun in the world and get all these wealth and win the lotto in the dream and make you feel good during the day. Yeah, that will happen, of course, because that's, if that's the view that you're practicing it with, and then you're, everyone can lose a dream, right? Like as in every human being has the capacity to lucid dream. If we practice, um, that's the fruition that you might get if you have that view. But in this tradition, it's about how do I, um, realize the real spirit that I am. Which is, you know, realization.
Mason:
And then, so, and then what, what then might pe people might ask then why am I doing this if it's something I can't grasp? And is that kind of the point is like discovering that that real, um, say beginningless intention or like that. What that path is, that there is that somewhat of a dissolving of the control of the ego and easing into a dream scape. And is is that kind of, is that like Yeah. Yeah, because that's where I find I would be at and I wonder if that's where a lot of people would be. Well, what do I do then? Like, what do I do? How do I do it? You know, how do I make sure I'm doing it right?
Clarissa:
Yeah. Well, yeah, and, and I think that's why I keep going back to the view and we always go back to the view in every class and in every question like, um. Because my teacher Ming says, if you don't have the right view, it's not gonna work. You just become a, a practice collector. Mm-hmm. You could, you could collect lots of practices. You can be a yoga you yo Gini, you could be a dream practitioner, you can be a shamanic practitioner, you can be whatever practitioner that you are. But if you don't reflect on what is the view, if you always go back to like, um, do I believe I'm an abiding self? Do I actually think that after I'm dead? Everything ends. Am I still holding onto that even though I'm not a Christian?
Even though I'm not a, like you might say that you're not religious, but the mo modern, like he says, he talks about how the view of what we've been brought up with is so ingrained in our culture. It's even in the English language, right? The English language is about perpetrator creationist. Um, like setup. So it's, I am going to the market. Whereas in a lot of other languages, like in Chinese, one word means lots of different things. Like ma ma, ma, ma, like, and the names of each Chinese.
Mason:
Is that mama ma like horse mother hemp? Is it, is it that one?
Clarissa:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I can never say I'm, I don't speak Chinese fluently, but yeah, my ancestors are Chinese. That's just the, even I'm learning Italian at the moment 'cause my husband's Italian and, and even in Italian it's not the, the subject, the subject is not the human. It's actually the, the like whatever it is, the bag. So if the bag is feminine, then that changes the whole sentence structure rather than Mason being. The subject, you know, like the subject object. So even in our language, it's very ingrained that there is a perpetrator doing something. So that is like God created the world. Mm-hmm. So that, that kind of stuff, we have to, and even linear thinking, right? Linear thinking of like beginning, middle, and end. We, we were taught in school to write that way, like. Yeah, every essay has to be structured that that way or you get it wrong.
Like you can't write a story that is like from the end and then going back to the, I mean, we have sci-fi for that. It's like a whole different category. So I think that's why it's, it's really important even in dream practice and whatever practice that you pick up that is from another culture to, to reflect on the view that you've brought in. 'cause we all bring in something that we've been trained in and how we grew up. Um, yeah. So that, that part is really. Cool to me to talk about always and to remember for us.
Mason:
Yeah. Uh, like I'll, I can never forget when I was first going through the process of Compre, you know, comprehending that I was never created, um, you know, never created by some Yeah. Ju to Christian God. Um, you know, and also wasn't just like a squirt off, off of God to go and have an experience. Um, and, uh, but at the same time. I like everything. This, this path and the point of these practices, even these sleep practices is, and I can, I imagine, you know, I see it a lot in the work that I do. You've already mentioned the type of collection of titles and collection of roles in the community. I'm a death doer. I do Shemic dream work. I do, you know, I, I do reiki, I do. And, um, and that, and that's, I'm not saying that's a, a bad thing, but they are.
Maps and tools and skills in order to allow the, um, the perception of the inner terrain or the terrain, the spiritual terrain or the path and that, and that, that perceiving that, that in inner terrain or that even the external reality of the terrain and then. Mm. Allowing yourself or who you are as you move along to shift the patterns and shift the map and your life on the outside rather than going, I'm gonna go become all these things. Cross talk: Yes. And then that will make me feel like this on the, on the inside. Yes. That's such a big, that's sort of
Clarissa:
something. Yeah. Yeah.
Mason:
It's um, I mean it's exactly the sound. Doesn't matter what genuine path it is, it's always, and it's always, um. Sometimes easy and graceful, sometimes not. I think a lot of people may be experience, we hear a lot from the people who it's like myself, who it's, that's not a graceful, an easy kind of path. It, it seems, and I'm sure there's many people out there that are like, oh yeah, no, I'm, I'm nailing this. But that perception of the terrain, that, that, that reality, that and that true reality, um, it just seems like that's what you, um, and your teacher, um. Bring at the core of this Yes. In the view as, as you say,
Clarissa:
yes, yes. I think you've explained that really well, like in your own words and a very different, um, framework to mine. But it, it is like the, the whole point of understanding the view is that whatever practice you are practicing, so all the things we've mentioned is to practice that view. So it, it is to practice that we are self arising and things are self resolving to relax into self resolution because the earth look at it like things wars happen, imperialist things happen, and then they die down and then things happen again and die down. Like that is realization, right? It is To realize and to practice and experience reality as it is, rather than what. Some over culture has taught us. So I think that's the practice. The fruition of the practice is that you realize the view as truth, like that we're self arising.
That time is actually circular, that karma comes down from generation to generation. Like all of these things, you can use astrology as a path. You can use women's circles as a path. You can use reiki as a path. You can use herbs as a path. Like everything can be a path if you know what you are practicing. The view of what you explain as that terrain and the inner and the outer being together, you know, like resolving or reconciling, like that's, that's what it is, right? Like that's the point of it. Which is to answer your question. 'cause I just remembered that's what we were talking about. It's like, why do I do dream practice? It's, it's the same as why do you do yoga? Why are you doing reiki? Why are you doing astrology? Like, what is the point of it? Is it to make your. Self money. And sometimes it is that, and it's fine. Like is it a profession?
But we need to like, answer that integrated question. What is it that you wanna realize from it? Like what is the truth or the realization that you're trying to achieve from that practice?
Mason:
So cool. Um, you brought up, um, ancestors before. Um, and in my work, um, in my, my path, you know, there is, um, at times, um. Say the meeting of like a sage or an an elder. And I, um, I have approached this with a lot of, um, skepticism, not in the reality of those being existing, um, or ancestors existing, but, um. For me, um, delusional beans is always something that I've kind of always, you know, been, um, that's why I kind of entered into that with the skepticism, knowing that there are being out there that think they've created reality or think that they are masters of reality. And that's why I kind of went in with skepticism. But the reason I, I talk about it now. Because we talk about, which is in the same as my teachers, that you will meet and see sages and, and, um, and ancestors at that point. And it's nice to have like a, a, a perception of their intent.
I talk when I've recently talked to a lot of people who are very practically western minded and, and they, and I've, and I've brought that side of Daoism, um, up or the, even in the herbal path. Cross talk: Mm. And they're like, well, how, what? You know, what's, you know, what's really going on there? And I'm like, I just don't think it's important for you to necessarily believe in these sages. But if you think about your mind, your heart, mind, that allows you to perceive reality, it doesn't speak. Genetic expression. Mm-hmm. And so your heart, mind in the dreaming will say like, engage with what's going on genetically and your evolutionary path genetically. Yeah. Which will include your ancestors and include wisdom from other genetic adventures that you've kind of spliced in and been a part of. And will, and that's how we metaphorically bring rise to this story.
So you can perceive what's going on. Yes. Within biological reality, through these mystical experiences. How do you relate to that?
Clarissa:
Oh man. You are so good at, I think Mason, you have a gift in, uh, bridging the, the, the gap between those. Scientific people and this, I guess the DAAs path and I, yeah. I'm loving your way of interpreting that. I just wanted to name that. But yeah, the way that I would describe that ancestors, deities is symbols. Mm-hmm. So, symbols, uh, is the way that the universe communicates with itself and with others. With us, the universe, and we're part of it. It's all about symbols really. So even right now, I'm speaking to you, but you are, I'm not, I, I will never know the real you, you are a symbol to me. I'm a symbol to you. This is why. Then in Chinese astrology, there's also symbols. Every year there's a, a particular symbol of an animal that that represents that. Qi of the year.
So this year we're in the symbol of the snake, and it's because this year, and they've studied it over thousands and thousands of years, there's a pattern to the way that the Q changes year after year. And this year it's about depth. This year it's about mystery, it's about the unknown, it's about dreaming. It's about things happen out of the blue when the snake, and that's the symbol of the snake. And similarly with your ancestors. That's a symbol. So it's not your real great-great-great great grandmother. And it might be. And it might be, but we will never know the precise, it's not like Taoism is not Chinese, like it's not German engineering. My teacher would always say, and it doesn't have to be German engineering. So the imprecision of symbols is actually healing. The imprecision of symbols is actually, um. Very communicative and very precise in the, in its own way.
So it's a science in itself to use symbols, to interpret illnesses, to interpret like dreams, to interpret lots of things. So. Even like in dreaming, when you have ancestors, it may not necessarily be like your actual ancestors that come up. It would be in a symbol, like a very common dream symbol of your ancestors or when your ancestors are talking is your childhood home. Why do we dream all most people? I mean, have you had a dream of like being back in your childhood home where you grew up? Cross talk: Yeah. And that that interpretation in, in my teacher's dictionary, dream dictionary is that your childhood home is the. House, not of your body, but your ancestral body. So that is not your house, but you're trying to go back somewhere to resolve whatever it is that they want you to know.
So if, and especially if they take you to the basement or the attic, the basement is about like past ancestors. The attic might be about ancestors that you don't know, or other guides and teachers that you, they want you to know about. So there's even symbols about the different levels of the house. Whereas like the, the current, the floor level is like about your own life, so, and. Every dreamer has their own dream interpretation, right? So that, that could be like my own interpretation. But once you write down your dreams, like for you, the attic might be something else and the basement might be something else. There's, but there's still generic symbols that apply to all humans and animals like that are very similar. So like the symbol of the snake across all religions and across all traditions is very similar, right? Because that, that is what we.
Think of like when we think of the snake and a tiger and an ox, like they're, they're all, there are some, like, I'm just saying, there are some symbols that are universal and then in the dreamers cosmology, you create your own interpretation. But I think, like, I went on a huge tangent, but to answer your question,
Mason:
yeah, but that's, that, that tangible was awesome. Sorry, that that I, I just wanna make sure we don't lose that, that. Cultivating your own perception of what the, that, that just elaborating there in terms of like that I just, in terms of perceiving terrain and perceiving the reality of this, I feel like that's something that. Isn't done enough. And I don't know when this course is. We actually hadn't even aligned on when the course, the course, but I just really wanted to grab that and maybe come up with some more and, and land some more practical things that people can take away and what you mean Mm. By cultivating your own perception of what those symbols mean. Yeah,
Clarissa:
yeah, yeah. I mean, like, look, everybody starts and you can even Google. What is the meaning of cats like dream symbol cats and AI can, can come up with all sorts of things now for you, and there's lots of dream dictionaries, lots of dream books. I think the most important thing about dreaming is that my teacher calls it the shamanic path. And what does that mean? A shamanic path? It just means it's, you are your own teacher. You are the, your own professional. There is no teacher in dream practice to be like, Hey, you didn't meditate enough. Like, go back to, go back to day two and like, right. There's no one else but you and, and the. Multiple beings or whatever you have inside you, right? So it's a path of self realization. And so you have to, and you will eventually, as you write down your dreams. And this is the only requirement for dream practice.
Participation, even like when it they first started in China is that you just need to be able to read and write. Um, and back then, actually not everyone could, but now everyone can in our culture. So it's a very simple barrier to entry, which is you just be, need to be able to read and write and every morning without fail, even if it's the most boringest dream or the most. Whatever dream like you are just dreaming of yourself in the office, which you were in yesterday, and you think, oh, that's nothing. It's just me in the office. You have to write it down. You have to write it down. It's called hooking your dreams in Chinese, you, you're trying to like hook whatever you can. And then over time, like I've got like five years of dreams, you start to see that the cat means something to me or like when I'm in a hotel room. There's multiple recurring dreams of me being in a hotel.
Like that place actually means something. It's a transition place and it refers to something symbols of like my sister showing up there like means something to me. And you could practice this by writing it down. Like, so if you search up Dream, dream symbol hotel in Google and Google tells you. Hotels are transitory places, blah, blah, blah. The way that you make it your own is that you write that definition how you would write, interpret it for hotels for you. So for me, hotels are, um, transitory places that I go to when I'm feeling that, when I'm, you know, struggling with work or work related, blah, blah, blah. And then that becomes my own dictionary entry for what a hotel means. And that means more to me as the dreamer. So even in dream practice, when we share our dreams as a group, we always say.
You are your own expert, like you tell us, like, we always encourage when we're trying to like open up other people's dreams or interpret their dreams, we always encourage them to say like, if it were my dream, instead of saying like, oh, that's what that means, because it's, it's never the same for two dreamers, really.
Mason:
I love it. Sorry, I, I interrupted you. Were gonna answer a question. I, I couldn't even remember what the question I was that, um, that I'd asked it. We were just getting such gold out of your, um, um, what, what I've kind of, um, I've really been thinking a lot about integration lately and, um, I've been talking a lot at, I've been talking at, um, at a few, um, a few practitioner events and a few health summits. Fleshing out that if it doesn't matter whether you're a GP or a naturopath or a, um, shamanic practitioner or whatever, an oncologist. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, endocrinologist that if between, if we're all cells of institutions and paths, if the extracellular fluid between us as a KPI is to say, put it in a western way, that they would like it, or a health outcome Yeah. Is the protection of the treasure. And it doesn't matter, the treasure, the Jing sheen of an individual.
Um, so that, and it's, it's interesting if I say, I say to oncologists, how do you approach the end of treatment? I go, I do this and this and this, and I just check off. And then I, and, and I go, some people get better outcomes if they do other things. Oh yeah, I watch them do this and that's better. And I go, well, why don't you integrate? And they're like, well, that's not my business. And I go, so what if you had to. Have the intention that that person's Jing and I explain what Jing is and chi and has the best chance. Um, and uniting on what you said in terms of like a, a, a really good death, um, is like an end, an end intention or just becoming a really nice and cool integrated person, as well as the way that I talked to 'em about it. So you protect the three treasures. What would you do now if your obligation. Was to protect a person's treasures. And they, they know it instantly.
They go, well, I will and have the legal ability to do this, this, this, and Cross talk: this. Mm. And um, so now back to dreams again. It's so. It's so easy to put them, them back home. Oh, ppo, whatever. You know. Dreams are dreams and dreams, you know, let's just go back to paying taxes. That's really, that's real. That's bloody. They're so real. And I, and I, you've just taken me back to a few dreams I had when I was going through a really tumultuous time. Um, and I had a Jungian therapist for that reason, you know, for, went for three years. Just someone who could just, I could bounce off and just dump on, would stay in symbol rather than trying to categorize me. Cross talk: Mm-hmm. And I had a dream.
It's still so vivid to me, um, right now, and was so real and so practical and I, and then I was thinking about that, how that made all the difference, that one dream that I brought to reality. And then my, I've, I've, I completely that from that moment I changed the direction of my company, like overnight and freed myself. Um, and um, then I thought about. A few, like I, I keep on bringing it to oncology at the moment. How many oncologists will say to a patient, do you know where this cancer came from? And then I remembered like, not only did they know it was like this breakup or this person or this traumatic event. I've just remembered a few of them. The few of the oncologists I'd talked to sighting that it would been through a dream that the patient was like, I can, you know. Yeah.
I keep on dreaming about this and I think it's kind of come from this type of anger that I have or, and, and how many oncologists are like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always like some emotional event or something like just how. Easily, you know, just that they Cross talk: get it. And well, just that con, just even for everyone listening just to remember, if you're a practitioner or someone who's like the head of a home, just remembering you've got that, that questioning about dreams and the cultivation of a person's individuality, capacity to build out the, the d the library of and dictionaries you said?
Clarissa:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I, I can't, yeah. I think it's, I think it's very, we are all remembering collectively together. All the, as you say, like all the super smart people in our community who are the oncologists and the researchers and the scientists who we respect and value in the gps, we pay them the most. But that, I think we're remembering even them that maybe we've been. What do you call it? Like truncating different parts of life into different sections and maybe that needed to happen for a time to understand a particular section, but we need, I think everybody knows instinctively that everything is connected, that it's like Jing Gian, that it's not just one body, like you're trying to fix a limb. Like even I find it really funny, like massage therapists in Australia is like, which part of your body hurts? Well, like everything's connected. Like you should just do the whole thing.
Um, so I think I love that you, you say that because even oncologists would be like, oh yeah, they, they do remember patients reporting dreams and, and all of that, that dreams is actually where you get a lot of the ideas, like for movies and stuff. It actually informs you of your illness, which is what whole, that whole first weekend is about. Like, um, yeah.
Mason:
Well that's in, because I mean, like a lot of people will, you know, like a lot of artists will either go through that path where it is their dreaming, um, you know, they're. Spontaneous, seemingly spontaneous, symbolic ideas that we all happen to relate to.
Clarissa:
Mm. Um,
Mason:
or they'll take drugs and, and, and, and that's also
Clarissa:
a type of dreaming. Yeah. A hundred percent. Like the trips that you take on mushrooms, like that is a huge dream, um, that you're experiencing. It's just in a different, like with the plant medicine as well as your own interplaying with your hun and Shin.
Mason:
Hmm. Yeah. But, and the, the, the, the grounded practicality of being able to build out that, um, that comprehension of, um, of inner, of inner reality and inner meaning. I think that's, um, it's a real nice, like North Star. Like, should I go and take another big dose of something and trip or hang on, is that actually helping me right now land this, this capacity for perception of Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Clarissa:
And that goes back to me. For me it's like. What is what? What am I practicing with that trip? What am I trying to practice? Am I trying to practice that I'm not an abiding self, that I'm not Clarissa, and that I'm interconnected with the cosmos? And if I'm practicing that, then can I practice that with other things like with a shamanic drum journey? Can I practice it with dreaming? So I think that's the, that's when people get lost in the practice. And not understanding what is the view that they're trying to practice. Like if you wanna escape reality and your reality is that life is boring and I just work nine to five, and then I have to watch Netflix to recover, then you take that trip to practice escapism and the fruition is that. So I see how the all those three will always. Seamlessly go together.
But you, I think people just need to remember like, what is it that, what is the view that I want to challenge here? That I'm a material, like I'm a materialist, that like my body is just this body, or like, I think they're trying to experience their spirit basically, right?
Mason:
Mm-hmm.
Clarissa:
So there's other ways to practice that.
Mason:
Yeah. I like I, again, it feels like this has been such a blind spot for me and a lot of people who I've talked, you know, who I've talked to, and it just seems like. Tani does it a lot with, um, with ia, like back here, you know, they, they talk a lot about i's dreams and IA can download, downloaded her dreams to me the other day and I was like, whoa. Like, that's like, and she's like, oh yeah, and that's right. And with all this detail. And I was like, man, I'm really, I'm really falling behind with my, like, my, my, my recall of my dreams. But I, it, but like it's, even though it's around me, I've, it's something I haven't been, um. It's, it's a bit, yeah, it's a bit in blind spot.
And even the people that I work with and who, it's interesting that it was literally, like, for me, the dream was like, and I was going through my own kind of old mom stuff and you know, from my mom and dad breaking up and not wanting to disappoint mom. I knew that. I knew all the, knew all the I, I know exactly where like my patterns came from, but how that was manifesting, I hadn't really had a flavor, therefore I couldn't. Shift the dynamics I had within the organization. And so I just, I had this dream where I was behind this bubble and there were particular people who were behind this big film looking at me, and one of them was recruiting other, um, women especially come over here and look at him with his dragon. First of all, I was sitting there in my dragon, look how bad it is and look how. Angry he is. And then it was me with my tiger, and like, look how dangerous he is.
And he's like, look at those claws. He's gonna hurt you and hurt people. And I was like, recruiting all of these, these other people to go behind this, this. And I was like, and I, and I sat in there and I was able to get the flight. It literally changed like my entire Wow. And I'm like, but I'm, when I, I'm do just, um, you know, I just, I, I donate my time to people who are trippers like me, who wanna run a com organization from a perception of the soul of the organization. Genuinely stewarded. Um, and I never asked them about the dreams, despite the fact that it was the thing that like, yeah, that, that turned it for me. I still hadn't put that into the arsenal of questioning when I'm working with people. And it just, that seems wild that, that,
Clarissa:
and I, I just wanna pause there because I think I see the natural, like that dream that you just shared, like, I want us all to practice this actually, like when someone is sharing a dream. To actually be in it like that sounds amazing. That vision that you just showed me and the recruiting of women like more yin energy, please, so that we can appreciate this. Powerful dragon that you're riding and then you're also on top of a tiger, which is like a lot. Unfortunately,
Mason:
the women were like, were recruiting more women to denounce the fact that there was a dragon. Oh, I see. The wound ants was like, look how dangerous he is. Look at, you know, look what he's gonna do quickly. Keep like fortify the cage and keep him back there, but come over here. Don't go over there to him.
Clarissa:
So it was a different lesson for you. See, this is why it's like, it's the Dreamer's interpretation that helps you. Um, so that was like, almost like an, I like trajectory change dream because you, what did you feel out of that? Like you wanted to make a different life?
Mason:
Um, it got really tactile, like the, it was, it was more the. That I could see how small I felt. And it was like, I was like making myself that elephant that had been staked to the ground. And when I looked around, I wasn't actually behind a cage. They were putting themselves behind a cage and I was actually in the open. Mm-hmm. And I was like, I actually really do trust this, this, this dragon or this, this, the energy that was is, is a dragon. Um, and I really trust that, tie that tiger energy in me. I actually really love it. But that was like. See, I had all the theory, I knew I'd been kind of somewhat accidentally told by, um, the, you know, the kind of like the mothers around me in, in my life, like, do not become like your father. And I got told that like really early and it really stuck in me.
'cause it was only like a year until, yeah, my mom kind of caught it and was like, shit, shit, shit. Like, let's like, and then, and tried to adjust but it was done. And then I knew, but I knew that. But I couldn't feel the reality of what I do with this
Clarissa:
Yes.
Mason:
Thing that is like my father that is very bad and you know, not allowed to be aggressive and you know, like, and so that's like, yeah. And so I then with the work with the dude I was working with at the time. It was like right now we just go through that process of letting it out in a functional manner rather than just going through this like cathartic explosion and reintegration and being like, yeah, I'm gonna like my test and, you know, but nonetheless, and, and I just started like choosing places to let it out where it seemed impossible prior and I just then let it out and, and just in a small manner and just watch this ripple.
Mm of like the organizational culture change and big go from like a, it finally started transitioning from being this flat structure without where and, um, the, the sacrificing of the essence of the company in order to keep people psychologically in their patterns with, uh, I called it like a professional orphanage. It was like a little orphanage where there wasn't any, um. It's not even account, well, it didn't even have accountability. I was like, come on, let's turn on direction. Like go and go out there and charge into the world. We've got, we've got. Disease and degeneration to absolutely annihilate, and we're gonna be able to do it through the essence of this beautiful organization. But, um, that's like, and so, and that's what I, that's all I ever wanted to do. And then I started, and then the whole culture changed. Big team shift.
Most people in the business were like, oh, this is rad. I just don't want to be a pirate going out there into the world. Wow. I'd wanna ship, but like, I was very close to not actually. Embodying that
Clarissa:
understanding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the dream was a dream was a catalyst. Yeah. To, and it was a dream. See what you knew. Yeah. And you were born in tiger year. If you are, are you turning 40 next year? So you are a tiger? Cross talk: Yeah, just, yeah. That's very interesting. Yeah. I could like go on for days interpreting, talking about dreams. I think it's just the most interesting thing.
Mason:
Do you work with people one-on-one?
Clarissa:
I haven't in the past, but I'm happy to. I've haven't really, yeah. Seen that as an offering.
Mason:
I just see that there's something like I, you know, I often, you know, even though it's something that's very seemingly, it's like, it's simple, it's easy. You just go and start doing this. It's like you, it's nice to get your hand held in the beginning, um, yeah. As you form the practice. So, um, I just thought it'd be nice if, if, um, when people do reach out to you, if there is someone in a very, um. Particular place and, um, and are having a lot of dreams and just need to land it, whether it's something I do, yeah, I'm totally
Clarissa:
open to that. Yeah. To work with people one on one. I haven't, you know, uh, done it before, but I, we do it a lot in the Dream course as a group. So,
Mason:
when's
Clarissa:
the course? When is it? Hmm? It starts in February and it's over five weekends. Unfortunately, the weekends are like American based, so it'll be like Sunday night, Monday night for Australian based people. I think I've only had one Melbourne. Student in the past, just 'cause of the timing.
Mason:
What time is it? It can't be that late. If it's like us is,
Clarissa:
I think it's like 3:00 AM three
Mason:
to 5:00 AM Oh right. That is like, so it's like it's night. Nighttime. Is that night? Is that night? It's dreaming
Clarissa:
time for us for sure. Yeah.
Mason:
Does it get recorded?
Clarissa:
It does get recorded, yeah. So you can see the recordings, but I would always recommend doing it in person. Um. Yeah. Nice.
Mason:
Getting up during, like starting at the end of liver time.
Clarissa:
Yes, exactly. So it's a very different
Mason:
experience. Is long time experience doing lung? Lung? Is that lung hours? Three to five.
Clarissa:
I just know the tiger that it's tiger hour. I don't know that. Mm.
Mason:
Yeah. Tigers Tiger is of the lung. That's the, that's the
Clarissa:
Oh, okay. Good. Yeah. I don't know yet. The,
Mason:
um, the animal, I'm pretty sure that's what Stephanie Nosco, I, if I'm recalling that picture of her, um, yeah.
Clarissa:
Three to 5:00 AM tiger hour is actually when you start having really vivid dreams because the young tea and the earth is rising. So you start to remember, even in your dreams a bit more, like your brain is more active. So yeah, and I was gonna say, uh, as well about Aya, like to encourage that in children because they're actually closer to the dream world than here. Like they've just come from there. So that's why they can recall it so easily. And then over time we kind of tell them it's not real. It's not real. And then they start forgetting like us. In our forties. Um, but yeah, I think it's really beautiful that children, it's just like part of their life, you know? Like they are non dual in, in a, like, in a sense.
Mason:
Um, before we head off, um, just for anyone, like in terms of creating the, you know, I think ev everyone's on the same page of knowing how to practically create the right conditions for sleep, but any of those, um. Any, any of those just like simple practices and ways of just easing into the sleep scape so that they're set up for interpretation?
Clarissa:
Yeah, I mean, the first thing is like have a clean bed. Like the feng shui of your bedroom is really important, even though you think, you know, you don't, might not think so, like, you know, all those things, like not have your bed in the doorway. Um, try not to have a mirror, um, in front of your bed and the practical.
Mason:
Any other, any other there for the Feng Shu that come mind?
Clarissa:
I'm not a big feng shui expert, but. Yeah, I think it's also just don't eat late at night. Like at level, you know, like don't make your dreams about digesting and even the position play around with the position of your body, like side sleeping. There's actually very strict, um, Tibetan and Taoist, uh, rules about female sleeping on their left and male sleeping on their right. Like, but I think just play around with right or left and the different dreams that you get and even on your back, they always. Um, say in this lineage, not to sleep on your stomach because then you're squashing your organs and the HUN is not so free to fly. Um, and that's my
Mason:
understanding as well was just like either on the right side, but it's interesting. This is like a, a, a male, male written text so that like, of course it's like it's on the right side as the first option, but it's like specific like. Put your right palm under your head so that your ear is between your right palm and the rest of your fingers. Bend your knees. Put your left leg, but your left leg should be, um, more bent and your knee should touch the ground. With the left foot hooked into the right leg, the left arm lies along your left side. Alternatively. You can bend your left arm slightly and place your palm on the Dante end area. That's,
Clarissa:
yeah, it's very specific, isn't it?
Mason:
It is all the second option, which is what I generally, I try and tend to towards it. Lie on your back. Three options for the position of your palms. Place your palms on the lower Dante ends as you do, um, during elix cultivation. Place your palms on your thighs or place them along the sides. Mm.
Clarissa:
Yeah. Again, like those are instructions that are generic, right? Yeah. Like, that's why it's like, try what works for you. When do you get nightmares? Like when you wake up from a nightmare, what position are you in? Like maybe that's all clues for your own practice.
Mason:
Yeah. I like, I mean, I kind of like, I get, I go cross-eyed thinking about all the instructions very quickly. I'm like, ah, I was, go on my right side and then I can't think of anymore. But the one that's really worked for me, I, I would say, is just like simple, full body breathing. Like breathing in through all of the pauses. Hmm. And I was just looking up this morning doing my, you know, my little bit of, um, uh, prep that I could because time like, you know, we, it's been a bit hectic at my house, but I, um, I really liked the text, the Full River of Redness, which is a Lee Hun text apparently. And, um, about the sleep cultivation. And it's like talking about the whole body breathing and says, put your head on a pillow and feel the cool breeze penetrate the marrow.
I really loved that and 'cause that's, there's only one way for me to interpret that, which is breathing in through the pause and breathing out through all of the pauses and I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. And you know, and it says, cool breeze are the boundless heaven and earth and like lying on a cloud. So that's, I, um, yeah. Thanks for prompting for me to even just like, have a look at that and be like, that's right. I can just be putting my hands on my D lower Dante. And, and then just doing some full body breathing. Yeah. Going into sleep. Yeah. Anything else you wanna leave the, these dreamers, these, um, these, these dreamers that tune into this podcast with?
Clarissa:
Not really. I love
Mason:
it. Um, thank you. It's been lovely to, to chat with you and you too. I think you should definitely have a contingent of, um, Aussies, um, like a lot of Americans and Europeans that listen to the podcast as well. So for you Lucky Ducks. You can go. Is it, is there a website or,
Clarissa:
it's just my Instagram and we haven't, haven't even posted the dates, so I'll do that sooner. We're very chill. I love it. You're like,
Mason:
yeah, I think that's, you're, you're similar. Similar to myself. I think that's like. That's, that's absolutely fine, but you can get, we'll get onto that. This part will come out in like a week or a week or so. Okay.
Clarissa:
Awesome.
Mason:
Plenty of time. But I think, um, I think there's an appetite for it and I think everyone who's getting, having the call. Do you do, do you have any other resources outside of the course for, for those that, that follow your Instagram, obviously? Yes, definitely.
Clarissa:
Yeah, I'll post my Instagram, but also my teacher's website. So diwan circle.org is looming website and he has his whole dream course there for, um, downloading, you know, for a price. So he's got all sorts of other courses as well. Feng Shui Healing Ship, uh, astrology. Yeah.
Mason:
Love it. Well, have a beautiful day and a beautiful week. You too. And I think the challenge for everyone is to just be writing for just yes, wake up and write. Yeah.
Clarissa:
Yeah. Write down your dreams.
Mason:
Love it. All right. Well, I'll see you next time.
