Click The Links Below To Listen Nowย
ย
 |
 |
|||||||||
ย
 |
 |
ย
This one's a ripper, legends. I sat down with Dr. MG McCullough, a classical acupuncturist who trained under Ann Cecil-Sterman in the Jeffrey Yuen lineage, and we went deep - like, Jenga-block-pulled-from-the-middle deep - on what modern acupuncture school actually leaves out. MG's whole thing is that we didn't just simplify Chinese medicine when it got exported West, we pulled the center block out of the tower. The primaries got taught, the channels, sinews, luo vessels, divergences and eight extraordinaries got filed under "extra," and now most acupuncturists are running triage clinics instead of practicing the full system. We get into why that matters, why it's not anyone's fault, what it'd take to rebuild the whole thing from the ground up, and where MG's taking her own practice next.
Dr. MG & Mason discuss:
- The Jenga analogy - how acupuncture education pulled the center block (the classical framework) and left everyone thinking they had the full foundation when they didn't
- Why the "secondary" channels - sinews, luo vessels, divergences, eight extraordinaries - aren't extra at all, they're there to protect the primaries, and skipping them is the whole problem
- The barefoot doctor origin story, self-colonization of TCM in the '50s, and why triage-model training became the default for an entire profession
- The Santa Claus story - MG's honest reckoning with believing "the system" works the way she was taught, and what it took to let that go
- Why 20% of US acupuncture schools have closed since 2020, and whether that's a crisis or an opening to rebuild the whole model
- "It's not magic, it's just medicine" - why full-system results look magical when they're actually just complete
- The starfish story - high-volume triage practice vs. slower, deeper healing work, and why both have a place
- The retreat model MG's brainstorming - five-day intensives built for real neuroplastic change, so people go home actually different, not just patched up for an hour
- Full circle on the barefoot doctor thread - what home visits taught MG about how nothing in someone's life stays hidden once a doctor actually shows up
- "Are you a stress denier?" - why "everything's fine" is often the biggest red flag in the room
Who is Dr. MG McCullough?
Dr. MG McCullough is a classical acupuncturist who trained under Ann Cecil-Sterman - a teacher in Jeffrey Yuen's lineage who's been on the SuperFeast podcast before, so go dig up those episodes if this one hits. MG's outspoken about the structural gap she sees in acupuncture education, and she's in the middle of a big life transition - moving to the south of France, just north of Montpellier - as she reshapes her practice toward teaching and retreat-style intensives. She also hosts her own show, The Original Medicine Podcast.
Resource guide
MG's website: drmgmccullough.com
Instagram & Facebook: @drmgmccullough
Her podcast: The Original Medicine Podcast (Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube)
Reviving Classical Acupuncture with Ann Cecil-Sterman (EP#208)
Why Chinese Medicine Is Failing Us with Rhonda Chang (EP#80)
YinYang Wuxing For Inner Harmony with Rhonda Chang (EP#89)
Connect With Us
SuperFeast Instagram
SuperFeast Facebook
SuperFeast TikTok
Check Out The Transcript Below:
Mason:
Yeah, I think this type of stuff that you're talking about, like the classical is almost like tokenistic in the acupuncture world, and it's like, "Oh, you know, oh, it's so lovely." And it's, no, it's like hyper-significant in terms of the positioning of acupuncture in the entire way that it's plugged in to keeping our civilization healthy.
MG:
This is a topic That I circle back to many times because I feel that when we're not clear enough, when we're talking about classical acupuncture and classical medicine, but I'm specifically thinking about acupuncture more than herbs and other branches, I think that a lot of people think that it's a style. Like, I hear this a lot, Ann style, Jeffrey style. Now, certainly Jeffrey comes from a lineage, so I do understand that idea, but I think that's what's missing because that was missing from our education. So all of us that went to acupuncture school, we thought we got the foundation. You know, and certainly we were introduced to this idea that we would learn more, we would develop our skills and our intention and all these things once we got out of school. But I think because we missed literally what I think is the crux. I mean, it's like a game of Jenga.
Mason:
Mm.
MG:
But we pulled out the center block.
Mason:
That's interesting. You know what I mean? 'Cause, 'cause it is a continuum. That is interesting. I mean, like, Ann Cecil Sturman, who, like, I w- like, I have just hit record, everybody, and now I'm gonna officially say, "Yep, no, we're gonna- we're keeping it." So Ann, Ann Cecil, who's been on the podcast twice, I believe now, so everyone should be, you know, know her. You can go back and look at what she's doing. And then the Jeffrey Yuen. I guess, you know, then it's like a lineage. It's like, oh, this is just a lineage, and then I'm in a lineage. You're right. It's like a Jenga. It's like, no, no, no, we're in, we're in a, we're all in a continuum here.
MG:
Yeah, and, like, I'm just like a little ant in the lineage, like, in the path. But what I think is missing is that we don't get this in school. There's some mention made of the eight extraordinaries, right? But as acupuncturists learn it in TCM school, we learn, like, master couple points, and you just put those in. And then people even combine those with other points, right? And when you study classical acupuncture and you learn the actual application of the channels, that's really blasphemy. It's so startling to me, knowing what I know now. Like, why didn't I get that in school? And I know I didn't get it in school. No one else got it in school. So that's really, like, kind of the hill that I'm gonna die on, is that- Mm-hmm ... I need everyone to know what we missed out in school. And if after you learn the- Hopefully, hopefully you've got, like,
Mason:
a cat's lives kind of thing. You'll die on this hill. Yeah. It'll get integrated, and then there'll be other hills you can go die on.
MG:
Well, for sure. For sure. Let's do hope. Maybe if I have enough Jing herbs, then I'll come back several times, right? But I'm
Mason:
curious 'cause the real intricacy of going into school, because I can look at what happened in the '50s of what Rhonda Chang, who is another podcast you go back and listen to that I know you know and referenced. Rhonda Chang Has her book about there was a self-colonization that occurred within the '50s and Mao Zedong essentially kind of like industrialized Chinese medicine in a way that it could then go into university structure and then be exported to the West. And I kind of sometimes try and take a rosy rainbows angle to that if I look at collective evolution and creation in general and what humanity's trying to do, even if it's egregious and going, right, well, that has made it exportable. Agreed. And now is there... Okay, cool. That's good.
And then now as you're learning this stuff in school and then having to unlearn and go and plug in the classics and see, are, are you seeing that it will be possible for mass education institutions to be able to bring this in at all? Is it even a model that you think is gonna be possible?
MG:
I do. But to go back to what you said in the beginning, I think that even though there's benefit to creating a system that was easily exportable and learnable I think the damage that that does is for those of us who have invested time and money, and in the US it's very expensive to attend acupuncture school, we've invested this into TCM, and we get out, and the model is very Western, right? Like high volume clinics, like some people are running offices with five to seven rooms, you know, just constantly like we're throwing in needles, we're going to the next room, right? And we're doing the best we can, and we are helping people, otherwise we wouldn't have five to seven rooms. But I think it's like so many things that we have to have a mindset shift. So I don't think that what we're talking about here is just going to be interjected into acupuncture schools.
I think acupuncture schools have to be rebuilt, and then that also means like rebuilding licensing exams and licensure in general, and what does it mean. So I can see how the discussions that are being had in some states right now in the US is how can we restructure the licensure for acupuncture so that there are different levels of training because there's some areas that no longer have schools there. People are not moving to the area, and so they're-- it's leaving this tremendous hole in care, right? And so the states are saying, the acupuncture boards in those states are saying like, "How can we basically welcome people into the state to practice but lower the bar for them?" And so maybe we do that through restructuring. I guess the way to call it is restructuring licenses. So just like in Western medicine, like you have different levels of nursing, you have mid-level providers.
Like do you have this in Australia, nurse practitioners and physicians assistants? And then you have medical doctors, then you have people that are specialists. You know what I'm saying, and so forth. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that model works, but I just think that It's mindset. And when we've been trained in one way that it's like we can just put needles in and go to the next room, I can't wrap my mind around that because I've met Anne Cecil Sturman when I was midway in school, and I was really disillusioned by TCM at that point.
Mason:
That's good timing. Oh, you're already feeling it. That's good timing.
MG:
And it... Yes. Yes. And it was like- Normally
Mason:
it happens after,
MG:
doesn't
Mason:
it? Okay.
MG:
You know, I wonder, because I wonder whether people who leave acupuncture school do so because they're not getting what they thought they were gonna get when they came to it, 'cause I do think a lot of people- No, you're right have that inner knowing.
Mason:
You're right. I mean,
MG:
possibly.
Mason:
Well, it's just kind of like, 'cause it gets stuffed down because you've got this great institution in front of you, and everyone's like, "No, no, no, this is right." And you're like, "All right. I'll stuff that little voice down because my lecturers are great, and I... No, I'm just gonna trust it." You're right. It, it is there- Yeah ... when I talk to a lot of acupuncturists.
MG:
I think we're in the position as brand-new baby acupuncture students to be like, "Who am I to say what's what?" You know? And I think maybe it was a little bit different as I talked to other people in the profession. You know, my colleagues say, "Oh, what? I never heard this." When I sat down in class on the very first day at school, they told the story of the barefoot doctors. So they gave us this insight to it's not the real deal that you're gonna get here over these next four years, and it was told in a really exciting way. "Oh, this is such a cool story." And I do agree that it is a cool story, for sure, but again, back to the different levels of practice. The barefoot doctor is not doing the same thing that Jeffrey Yuen's lineage is doing. Right? The... I don't wanna call it the end result, but for lack of a better term, right?
Like, the outcomes are very different if we're throwing needles in and running to the next room, right? And if we don't know anything about Chinese medicine or even medicine, Western medicine or anything, and we're just getting trained because we're being sent out into a village in China to help people the best we can, it's kind of like triage in my mind. And that serves a really valid and important purpose. But now we've built a whole profession on triage And I didn't go to acupuncture school because I wanted to triage. I didn't go to acupuncture school to be a technician. I went to acupuncture school to be a Chinese medicine doctor. And when they told me this, I was just like, "Er," you know, like, "Wait, wait, wait.
Okay, what is this other thing?" So then I had a couple of teachers in school who studied with Jeffrey, and so they would sort of drop into lectures or whatever, like this or that, and I'm like, "Okay, wait, can we talk a little bit more about that?" And so it piqued my interest really early on, but I also did know that, okay, you gotta learn this stuff because board exams, and I started school in California, and that board exam is very tricky, so there's a lot of focus on making sure you're prepared. So again, it's like this cycle of teaching to a test and making sure you can check the boxes, and that's important to get the license, but is it really important for practicing? And it just kind of got all muddied early for me, and then I was also having health problems getting treated with TCM. It was making me worse. Mm-hmm.
I was like, "This isn't what the book says is supposed to happen." And then the teachers are over here in my ear talking about Taoist medicine and I'm like, there's something in this, I... almost dichotomy. The book that I have to study for school is telling me X, X isn't working, and then I'm hearing something totally different. I
Mason:
shouldn't say totally different- That's interesting, like, I don't like When I've kind of learnt about this where I went into like, you know, my stage of opposition to modern TCM, which is a- Yeah ... it's a nice sprout stage of anything. But I'm like, when you talk about triage and modern medicine being a system which is based around triage, and it's like it's so necessary with such a huge population explosion. And so the fact that the shift... My wife did a first semester of Chinese medicine in Australian university, and essentially the same thing happened. They were talking about this root crop of the... Like, I know would it be nice to, once I finish rambling, to get a little bit of a description of a barefoot doctor that ties into that mindset that Jeffrey is bringing.
But they're not able to say, "Listen, there's your ancestors and a different mindset that's a little bit more specialized and one-to-one that goes outside of triage. You're here to learn triage because it's the greatest mass thing that we can do within a university structure, but I wanna be explicit with you all. We've agreed that this is the basis of what you have to learn, and even the modern barefoot doctors and acupuncturists will agree to that.
However, know that you can go beyond it or you can go and be a triage five clinic room where you don't have any semblance of like when you take a pulse it's a meditation, and you need to access that part of yourself that goes into the animism so you can go beyond the textbook and find through a sensory process where the linchpin or where the core evolutionary excitement and joy is in the ch- person you're treating, and then we're gonna work around from that point and be like, 'There it is laid out to you. We can't do it for you.'" That, that seems sensible.
MG:
I like that idea, and I would be willing to concede that. Yeah. But I think that something that's missing if we go that route is... And obviously this is my perspective on it, right? Like I'm not saying that this is like the be-all end-all of the conversation, of course. But the way I see it is that all of the channels, the sinews, the lows, the divergence, and the eight extraordinary are there to protect the primaries. So I feel like when we base our entire education around using the primaries only I'm not saying we can't do good, and I'm not saying that we're not helping people, but what I'm saying is to consider that the basis or the basics is kind of missing the point.
And to tell you, like, an embarrassing story, I was literally, like, 10 years old before I- it really settled into me that Santa Claus wasn't real because I genuinely wanted to believe in the magic and the spirit of it, right? And so even though that was late, like, all my other friends thought Santa... Like, they knew about Santa, but I just held out and I was like, "No, no, no. You know, Santa." Right? And I think I'm not s- exactly sure where I was going with that, but I think the
Mason:
point that I'm trying to make is- Yeah, please keep going 'cause I know exactly where we're going with it. I relate ...
MG:
Well, I had this thought recently where I was thinking, you know, it's kinda like when I believed in Santa way too long. I had this belief that it could be real and magical and, like, this beautiful thing, and that's kind of how I feel now in acupuncture where when I see what happens with people when you use the whole system, I don't think that TCM clinics are seeing the same thing. I know for certain that the majority of the population is not seeing the same thing that I'm seeing in my practice because if they did, they wouldn't start a GoFundMe when they got a critical diagnosis. They would call their acupuncturist. But they're not calling their acupuncturist because the acupuncturist is managing pain or, you know, mitigating symptoms. They're not reversing disease, and it's not their fault. Again, they haven't been given the structure.
So it's like believing in, on that side of things, it's like believing in Santa Claus because that's what you were told. You believe that the primary channels are going to reverse that joint pain because that's what you've been taught. You just use some points around the knee and stomach and liver and spleen, and maybe we throw in some gallbladder 'cause I don't know why, just in case. And we think that- The point's got a cool name and people say they feel better. Yeah. Sure. Sure. I mean Anyhow, I guess I'm just trying to say that I think a really critical piece is missing, so we don't know how to think about it. We're just doing what we've been taught, and that's not anyone's fault.
People are going into their clinics every day working hard, caring for their patients, wanting to do the best they can, but they're not understanding that they've missed such an important, serious part, which is that all of those other channels aren't, like, extra. Even in the school I went to, it was called secondary vessels. There was one class that this guy, who was a longtime Jeffrey student, taught. You know, it was an elective. You could choose to take this class, and everybody took it and left super confused and, you know, and didn't know what to do with it. But what I'm saying is it was framed as, like, this extra thing, whereas I see it as fundamental. And even, like, when you get into the classic text, which I'm only now getting into myself, you see where it says you should start with the divergence and work your way back, right?
'Cause then you understand how the dis-disease is going to progress or how it did progress. So that's just such a different way of thinking. So I think that's, like, a long-winded way of saying I like your idea of just restructuring altogether. But I don't know that it can be added. I think we have to just start anew.
Mason:
Hmm. You've definitely pointed at the fact I saw your post this morning just when I was DM-ing you, and I was like, yeah, I... You're right. If there's a serious diagnosis that occurs, your initial thought isn't to quickly hop on with your acupuncturist. And the reason that I have a podcast attached to SuperFeast is where I see it as, like, I guess, you know, interesting enough, you'd say, "Oh, it's just one of the secondary extra things I do at SuperFeast," and yet it is the core of what I'm doing is it starts with Me, I provide herbs for cultivation and aspirational health and evolution, yet that brings people going, "Oh, have you got an acupuncturist you can recommend?" Because we're dealing with health, things pop up and people come to us. Sure.
And I'm like, "Well, I can't actually trust the TCM system," and because it's become so tokenistic, and if there's any Western diagnosis around... I said diagnoses before, I don't even know why. Oh, you've got diabetes. You've got cancer. You've got this. It's like you're not even allowed to become a primary carer even though those diagnosis don't exist w- within classical Chinese medicine, which is almost one of the core issues, that you go to an acupuncturist to treat cancer when that's a Western diagnosis, and it wouldn't be even framed in that same way. That's for one. But I don't even think most acupuncturists I know trust themselves to even go in and treat someone who's got a severe disease state.
MG:
I agree entirely, and I, again, I do think it's because the framework is missing. If you only learned the primary channels... And I think I should also make a distinction, not to hate on the primary channels, but really, like, what I have big reservations about are these point prescriptions that use, like, a massive amount of primary channels, and it's just, like, you know, also focused on points, right, rather than channels. Like, I think you could probably give somebody a really excellent treatment if you were really focused on the channel as a whole. I think that would probably take you farther. But again, as I understand the whole system and the way that disease progresses, and not even progresses, but gets moved by the body. Like, I think of it as, like, an elaborate Chutes and Ladders. You know, like, if there's room here, we can park it here. Oh, nope, there's no room in the inn.
Okay, we're gonna go here. There's not room here, or this is getting a little, you know, shaky. We're gonna move it somewhere else. Or it happened, you know, when you were very young. Okay, that's a different level. Once you understand that, you feel really confident that you could really help anyone. But I think to myself, "How would I feel if I only knew what I learned in school, like point prescription-wise?" I would not be confident at all, and that's what I see, like, in acupuncture forums online, too. And it really bothers me because I'm like, "No." People are leaving the acupuncture profession. Schools are closing. Something like 20% of schools have closed since 2020 in the US. So that's a tremendous amount of schools no longer available for people if they do want to.
But then there's the other side to it, which is like, well, do we want people to keep going to acupuncture school as they are? Or would we like to see, again, like putting a more positive spin on it, if they do eventually close, does that leave open the door for starting something new and we can just start fresh, and we give people all the tools, and then when they finish acupuncture school, they go into practice, they feel confident, they feel excited? Which I think most of us do feel excited when we go into practice, but it's like not too long before people are like, "Oh gosh," like, "I don't know how to treat this." And then they go online, and they ask questions to, you know, quote, "more experienced acupuncturists," "Have you ever treated XYZ Western medical diagnosis in your clinics, and what did you do?" And then people rattle off point prescriptions.
And it's just really sad to see that rather than a more experienced acupuncturist saying what was going on in the person's life at the point when the symptom happened, like Anne Cecil St German teaches us, right, to ask. I think that's the most critical question. It gets you- Mm-hmm ... way better information. You know, like what was their pulse saying? But I feel like pulse, it's barely used even anymore in practice. And anyway, it's just getting more m- and more mechanical, and again, it's like back to the technician. There's nothing wrong with being a technician, but it's a different practice altogether, and I think if we could shift the whole, you know, start with a foundation, we'd be in a really different place, I think, where when you do get that really serious diagnosis... Of course, if you have like an acute emergency, I don't think you should call me as an acupuncturist.
But I think when you get the autoimmune diagnoses and you're really wiped out, I think you should absolutely call me first before you inject, you know, whatever pharmaceutical or start on methotrexate or-
Mason:
Mm-hmm
MG:
anyway.
Mason:
I think you're- I
MG:
think there's another way ...
Mason:
definitely right. What you've said in terms of like the university system, you can't just add in. I do try and allow my mindset to be Aligned to the philosophy of Tao. And then straight away, as soon as you said that, I was like, "No, that's right." If I come back to yin-yang, what we're looking at is such an extreme yin convergence- Mm where we've gone to the extent which can be great if harmony is achieved, but as you said, we've got diagnosis, you know, like renal department, like in TCM we've gone into like physical organs, testing, measurables, textbooks, protocols that are backed by somewhat some studies and studies are trying to c- it's, it's all convergent and that's cool.
And but the yang, if we do go back to the one intent that everyone does have and whatever the Uji of this, you know, in the Tao, the one that comes from the Tao, there's an intent of like harmony and prospering of humanity. So from there you see a yin-yang within Chinese medicine and medicine in general, where we've got such a yin convergence coming to points and measurable but then coying and you can't move unless you have that.
And I never know, and I think you might have words for it within the classics and having been with Anne and the yang in that sense when you bring up magic, 'cause I relate, I have inception moments for Superfeast and my primary moment was when I was 14 on my way to Catholic school on a gray drizzly day and the radio came on and there were disease statistics just been said like point blank, you know, this is how many people are gonna get cancer if you're a male and female and diabetes and stuff And I was like, oh my God, that is so... And I'm, at that same time, I'm like rewatching Hook and trying to, you know, loving Neverland, Peter Pan. I'm reading Harry Potter, and I'm like reading that book, pining for that moment when he's been living in this dull, non-magical world, and then he's in Hogwarts and he's in this magical world.
Also old enough to be like, I don't wanna be a wizard, but like, goodness gracious me, that has to be something of what magic, and it's just nowhere. And so that's where in the yang, in that divergence, in the extraordinaries, that yang, that magic in practice or the meditation or that perceptive element, right brain element, is that spoken about in terms of like you come into that space and you work and you kind of sail through the extras and the sinew, and then you snap back and you go, "Right, quantify it. Ask the question." You know, like, are we on the right track? And then you snap back into that right brain, and then you go into that yang divergence. Is there any type of distinction about that?
MG:
Are you asking me does that happen to me?
Mason:
Well, definitely I'm more interested for you, and then how even you talk about what wording is used and as a hard, or I guess it's a soft skill. It's like software going into the hardware. So we're like talking about upgrading our software. Like in the classics, I feel they're good at making that distinction between yin yang and practice for ultimate rather than just like, "Well, we're just gonna triage and just sit here within this yin little place, and it doesn't matter if they don't get the greatest outcomes ever, and we won't treat disease anymore."
MG:
Well, so it's funny you say that because, and also incidentally, I'm a really terrible Daoist because-
Mason:
You don't wear shoes ...
MG:
taken to its You know. To, taken to its full extent, like I literally spend time thinking about this. If we just think everything is as it should be, then why are we seeing patients and working with them?
Mason:
Mm.
MG:
If the back pain they come in with, regardless of what it's resulted from, if we're Daoist to the full extent, wouldn't we just say, "Well, that's their path in life, and so the best we can do is help them accept it," right? Of course, that's not what it's about. I get that, but I'm just, before I get to the middle, I'm thinking about what's the extreme. I can totally accept exactly my circumstances as they are, and I'm definitely not good at that at all Or I can reject everything. But ideally, I'm gonna be searching for something in the middle. What are the things that I do have to accept? What are the things that I can change? What are the things that get accepted before I can change them? But to that point, it's like, what are we doing in our practices? And what do we believe that we can help people shift?
And I, again, I just feel like I'm repeating myself but if we don't know the whole system, we probably don't think we can help people shift a whole lot. And so when somebody comes in and says, "Well, I have multiple sclerosis," we probably even say to them, "Oh, I'm sorry to hear that." But we don't really need to say I'm sorry. We just get to work. "Okay, you know, let's dig in," right? And to me, I think I speak about this as a practitioner also because I've been a patient. You know, like, I haven't been completely well my whole life, and I've been through some shit, right? So I've learned, I think, more deeply through my own experience as well as being, like, in a clinic with patients, right? And so I'm looking at it like how do we transform ourselves so that we can be different at some point? And then what comes with that is, okay, no longer do I have these symptoms.
And I don't think that's what acupuncture school teaches us. So I don't know how we get there. I think there are lots of people who think this way, but how do we integrate that into practice? Whereas I think what I'm seeing more of, sadly, is red light therapy in acupuncture offices, and foot soaks, and I don't know what all else. But it has nothing to do with acupuncture, and there's nothing wrong with those therapies, right? Like, there's more than one way to skin a cat. But I think what my interpretation of what I'm seeing is I'm not able to get good results using the acupuncture that I have been taught And I deeply and desperately want to help my patients. So I will invest in weekend functional medicine trainings, I will invest in the red light therapy, I will add these things in to my treatments because they do seem to help people feel better, and that's what I want.
So I think it's always coming from, like, a good intention, but I think the fact that you have to resort to things that aren't even Chinese medicine just shows us that we haven't really learned Chinese medicine. Because I... The flip side is if you know the whole system, you don't need to have these ancillary things. Like, certainly... I mean, I think, like, herbs are a different kind of thing because they're integrated into Chinese medicine. That's not the same thing as a red light, I don't know what you call it, a red light device.
Mason:
Red light therapy.
MG:
And, you know, like, acupuncturists, like, recommending cold plunges and saunas, and the alternating hot and cold therapy. I just don't understand how you practice the same thing that I do, but you recommend something that's so depleting.
Mason:
Yeah.
MG:
And I had a pretty unpleasant experience a few months ago where somebody slid into my DMs and basically told me to shut up. And especially as a white woman, like, I was responsible for all of the white people who have colonized the world and, you know, bastardized all kinds of cultures, right? It was a very extreme response. But it was, "Don't tell people how to do things." And I can respect that on one level, but the other level is if we know something needs improving in our profession and we sit by and we don't speak out, I personally don't feel good about that, and I don't think it's right So you can take what I say with a grain of salt. You can take it or leave it. You can dismiss me as some crazy white woman.
But really, back to your earlier point about self-colonization, I think to take TCM and run with it and practice it your whole life, never looking for something deeper, I think that's perpetuating the colonization that happened. I mean, incidentally, it was a Chinese guy who colonized Chinese medicine. So I do think we also need to keep that in perspective. But how do we get out of this cycle, and how do we go deeper? And that's what I really care about, and so that's what I'm talking about, and I know that it ruffles feathers sometimes. Yeah. But I think about the rising tide floats all boats, right? Like, I want Chinese medicine to be a respected profession because anyone that you go to is gonna really be able to make a difference for you, to really help you transform, to heal from whatever is bothering you.
And I think that if I didn't think that, I would just gatekeep, and I would just keep it to myself. "Oh, man, I'm so lucky I met Anne Cecil Sturman when I did. I've been studying with her all these years, and she's taught me all this great stuff, and I'm not gonna tell anybody about it. I'm just gonna be, like, this practitioner that can help people get really good results." No, that's not what I wanna do at all. I want everyone to know what I know, and I wanna connect everybody in the profession so that, like you said, when people ask you for an acupuncturist, you feel confident-
Mason:
Mm-hmm ...
MG:
recommending the person who's down the street because you know that they're practicing with the full potential.
Mason:
I really appreciate the way you've answered that question 'cause I think, again, I found myself going like, all right, we've got the analysis and the diagnosis and the choice of treatment And then I was looking at yang and magic as if it was just another thing to get added in. I, I, well, I often look at yin and yang as like space time, space being yin and time being yang. Mm. The way you've just answered that, and I was like trying to add something in within space, and it was like, no, you were just like, what you were talking about was like an expansion. 'Cause the vision and the magic just comes from going almost, hey, it's great that we can treat these symptoms, but we're actually looking at, like, it reminds me when I was in the Taoist museum in Wudang, and it was like, here's the five levels of doctor.
The doctor creates disease, treats disease, keeps balance, prevents disease, and then dissolves karmic inflictions. And so even- Mm ... just going, well, let's just dream a little bit and think about, as you were saying, like there's a lot of stuff that created that disease in terms of where your mind is at and the way you're living your life. So that goes into a intent, and that intent or magic or yang or vision, that's what's not allowed because science is just like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, you don't wanna create false, you know, things. There's no room for that. We haven't got any data to say that that's, we can even do that." And so that's where that yin shuts down, that even going, as a practitioner, you should be able to not only treat that disease, but get to the core of it and then ensure that that person has what they need to just ward off disease and prevent it.
But then even get to the heart, and you can even get yin at some point and start quantifying what karma is, because I think it's important to not stay ambiguous around that, and it can be put into genetic and cellular context at some point. But for now, we've got an excess of yin. Let's just breathe that vision in to the university structure and say, what if this, over the next few decades or century, actually be- becomes a system that's restored where you can trust- That you can get your modern medicine, but you go to Chinese medicine to restore absolute harmony. Like, that's what's not actually in and why I now agree with you, that w- it needs to be a bit of a restructuring altogether.
MG:
Yeah. And, you know, like, I really appreciate your perspective, how you founded SuperFeast, and that it started with this belief in we can do better than this. You know, we don't have to have these rates of disease. There are things that we can do differently, and I'm gonna be part of that, and I share that feeling. Our profession can be different, and I wanna try to help in whatever way, you know. And they'll be other people who feel the same way, right? I know that I can make a difference. Maybe if I can help a few of people over here learn, right, then it trickles in, right? But, like, I really want it to be the whole thing. So in some ways, I wouldn't be sad to see the current acupuncture education system collapse, and then let's start over. Not because we don't want it to be present, but because we wanna build it back better.
And it's just hard for me to imagine that if you learn the whole system, that you would ever default to point prescriptions, because there is so much magic. But I... Something that I say a good bit, like, more so when I'm writing than in, you know, speaking, but it's not magic, it's just medicine.
Mason:
Mm.
MG:
But it looks like magic because you get better. And, you know, like, I've heard functional medicine doctors talking about themselves as resort doctors because they say they're the last resort. People have been to every other type of practitioner before they come to them. But I really think acupuncturists are resort doctors because we're usually truly the last stop. People have been to physical therapy. Obviously, they've exhausted medical providers. They've been to chiropractors even. They've been to all types of massage therapists. And then they're like, "Well, I guess I'll try acupuncture," you know? Mm. So that's often what I see in practice, is that they have tried so many things, so when they do get results, it does seem like magic.
And I don't think that magic and medicine have to be mutually exclusive either, you know, to your point about herbs and tonics and Yeah, I have my own experiences with that as well
Mason:
It's kind of getting there now, but it's like anecdotal, you're talking about exceptions, not the rule. And so it's like, shut it down. And even for me, I don't like having an opposition stance. I don't like feeling like it's conspiracy theorists. Hmm. I don't necessarily want to be an agitator for the sake of being an agitator, and I'm actually not, as is, you know, nobody, but it's just there is a core intent, no, this isn't working and something needs to work. And sometimes that role consumes you, and you just become an anarchist and just someone that just throws shade, and that's excessive as well. Yeah. But yeah, it's a hard journey at times. We need to get a little bit-
MG:
I'm- ...
Mason:
better at that.
MG:
Yeah. Like, I really appreciate allopathic medicine. My dad was a physician. I know a lot of people who are medical doc- you know, it's the circle kind of that I come from, right? So it's not that I set out to be the anarchist or to be the opposition, but I have a very hard time accepting things that I just think are not right. And I also have a hard time with things that are kind of surface level That's never felt like the right fit for me. I used to be a fitness instructor. I owned a spin studio, and what spin has become is pushups on a bike with no weight on the wheel, and it's entertainment. And it's not exercise science based. It's frankly dangerous, but it is a billion-dollar industry, right? The SoulCycles, the Flywheel. I don't know if these things exist in Australia. They're huge, like, chain fitness kinds of things, right? But in my studio, we still had a good time.
It was still a party, but we're using exercise-based fitness. We're putting enough weight on the wheel so people are supporting themselves. And we're not doing pushups on the bike because that does nothing. I mean, unless you're a neurology patient rebuilding after a stroke, pushing up in a small, like, range of motion, that's not doing anything to build strength. I just have always felt a strong, like, commitment to let's keep it real, right? I wanna know what really happened when it comes to religion. Like, I don't want however it's been interpreted. I don't want the exercise class that's entertainment that somebody got their certification online last night, and now they're teaching me. I don't want the acupuncture that is quantifiable quickly and run to the next room. Like, I really wanna know more. So obviously, this is, like, a lifetime of study and a lifetime of, like, learning.
But I think that just because it- there's a lifetime of learning ahead doesn't mean that you can't know enough now to make a difference in people's lives, and I think that can be scary and overwhelming to people. Like, well, do I know enough to use it? Like, I took a class with Anne when I was a student over the weekend, and I went into school clinic on Monday, and I used it. So I think what is so incredible about her is the way that she's been able to condense what she learned over decades with Jeffrey in a way that does not dilute it, but makes it accessible and you can really get your hands around it and get your mind around it. And then you can keep growing with it. You can go deeper, you keep taking classes, you keep practicing, right? I don't think because I don't know everything that I can't know something. Yeah.
Because I can't do everything doesn't mean I cannot do something, right?
Mason:
Mm. Yeah,
MG:
I mean, just- It can be both magic and practical.
Mason:
I guess we each have different proclivities towards which one of those sides that we oscillate towards, and, you know, I think harmony is always the best way to go about it. But you brought up religion, I'm like, yeah, you can see how sometimes the conscious mind or I think everyone's heard me talk about enough, like that xi shen, that thinking mind, that personality, that forward-facing logical mind, that aspect of shen. Yeah. And it's like it wraps around TCM or even around Daoism and then religion, and it's like I just need to lock in and be told the rules, and please- Yeah do not tell me that it's not completely stable, because I will fall apart if I can't just lock into this being my bedrock of everything's okay.
MG:
Yeah. Right. Right, right. That's hard. Yeah.
Mason:
And then people come along who have... You know, I'm like, right, I've got my stability, I'm gonna continue to access my original shen, which maybe that's just like an observer, some, that aspect of the self that can vision a little bit more, a little bit more hun. You know? Xi shen being a little bit more of that po. Like, I need to survive, so don't rock it too hard 'cause I need to keep it all together here.
MG:
Sure. Sure, sure. It's,
Mason:
yeah
MG:
I, I have a colleague from New Mexico who had practiced, I don't know, she'd been in practice 25, 30 years or something before she came to the classical perspective to use all of the channels. And it's funny because she was hiring when I was graduating school, and somebody said to me, "You should talk to her. She is a really amazing practitioner, like, a great herbalist." And I did talk to her, and I told her this is what I was into, and she was bas- like, kinda dismissive, honestly, of it, and she was just like, you know, "Whatever, I don't care about that." So fast-forward about 10 years and she's getting into this. We become great friends, right? And so we studied together, like, went to class together, all this stuff. But she told me the details of her story, which was that when she got out of school, she was not impressed with the results that she was getting with TCM acupuncture.
So she said, "I've really gotta double down on the herbs." So she went to China, did a period of study there, right, and came back, and really is... was well-known in our circles, right? Like, she's an excellent herbalist. Okay, so she's like, "All these years I've been practicing, I felt like it was the herbs doing the heavy lifting. I felt like it was herbs that were getting my patients results, not acupuncture." And she was like, "Now that I know all the channels, I rarely use herbs in my practice. Like, I'm not prescribing them to everyone because I'm not seeing that they need it." I mean, again, like, isn't, I mean, more better in the sense of if we get your herbs dialed in, and we get the channels, and we get your diet, and we get your mind... I mean, none of that can hurt. It can all be working together.
But I just thought her story of her experience was so profound, that all these years in practice she felt like she was having to rely on herbs. But then I thought about, well, what does that mean for schools that don't teach herbs, and people go out with TCM knowledge only, and they don't have the herb component? Then what happens to them? And again, like, you don't go into acupuncture to be, like, famous and super wealthy. Like, you do it because you genuinely love it and you want to help people in this way. So I just feel like that's what drives me, is like, we have to know better so that we can do better, right? Like, we have to know that there's something there That we can learn
Mason:
You were talking about Dao and, you know, the Daoist aspect of being like maybe not the best, you know. But like-
MG:
Sometimes ...
Mason:
I think in that, 'cause Dao, again, to take it back to like what we are as like a big bag of bacteria and cells that has consciousness and there happens to also then be channels and chi and all that kind of stuff. Dao is you've got a proclivity to, and an interest in something. In this instance it's classical acupuncture and whatever else. And it's like Dao's I guess just not about smashing up against a place where evolution isn't occurring. And so you find that- Yeah ... place where, oh, there may be a little bit of resistance because there's yin and yang, but like nonetheless you go, "I'm not gonna beat my head against a wall and I'll just find that place and I'll channel it over there," and there we go.
And then at the same time there is yin, and this is where I think it gets complicated for people and I think about, you know, my teacher, my teacher a lot has talked about he just wants to go with his teacher and meditate in the mountains and he's like, "No, you can't yet. You got karma here." Which is just more or less like then I equate that to like at some point Like similar to what bacteria do before they pass, they drop all of the data that they've learned and just leave it in the environment for other bacteria- Mm to come and just grab. And that's the yin, that if you've... You just go and like, "Oh, I'm interested in this and I'm just gonna do it.
I'm gonna find that place that it flows as much as possible." But then like Lao Tzu trying to leave the civilization, he was stopped and he said, "No, you can't leave until you leave it." And that's like the yin side of things where he's then now like, "Right, I'll write the Tao Te Ching or I will document it somewhere and I will put it somewhere and I'll do whatever is needed in order to make it viable that it's able to be picked up." And that's Tao, I think. I mean, I was like, no, that's... I think they're doing exactly what the Taoists do and it's messy and evolution is messy.
MG:
Well, I love that Connie posted about being a student recently on her socials where she was talking about when people say, "Oh, I love what you said today in class." And she's like, "Yeah, I have to say that literally every class." The point being that today it was meant for you. Today it settled in, you know, you heard it today in a different way that was meaningful and helpful or however you wanna call it. Mm. We'll get there- And I think
Mason:
it's- ... I think. And, and I think that's the whole point is that's the Tao as well. It just goes and keeps on going and you've gotta get there. You have to get somewhere. There's this itch that we have to contribute and I think as long as you don't give up on the vision and then the practical, I mean just putting that into reality, at some point the itch is scratched. This is what like all the Taoists talk about and put it to prac- practical sense. They're like, "Oh cool, we'll take karma and dharma. That seems reasonable. Well, that puts words to what we've, we've been talking about." And you just, you keep on going until you're like, "Oh I've done it. I've actually scratched that itch and it's continuing, but I don't have that weight on my shoulders anymore.
But the important thing is with the Dao it does say that, you know, that you will feel like it's on your shoulders at one point and that's, they're your interest and you need to lead with it and then you need to find where the inlet is and then at the same time you need to go and find an appropriate amount of yin resistance and then take that on and like, and so on it goes.
MG:
But not be too anarchist.
Mason:
Because if you are, you've become of the world, completely of the world and excessive. And then as you said, all of a sudden those aspects which are more yang which of like, you know, vision, this actually all doesn't matter. There's no meaning here. We're just weaving a dream. It's all a bit of fun. You don't have to, you know, relate to all of this suffering which you can become super excessive with as you would see in the world. You can completely detach. But then at the same time when you do come into the yin and you remember there's no meaning you're like, "All right but no, here is suffering. It's occurring and I've got my little place. I actually can't solve it.
I'm a part of a continuum," because you've got that yang aspect integrated and you go and like, "Oh I'm gonna dig my feet in and I am going to contribute to the best of my capacity." And then you oscillate back out and then at some point you're not delusional in the sense that of course you can't solve this on your own and maybe you're not even gonna have that much of an impact but it doesn't matter. The only barometer you have is yourself of whether you've actually contributed that and whether you can be virtuous as you do it. I don't know if that makes sense.
MG:
Sure, yeah. There's a story about starfish on a beach. Do you know this?
Mason:
No.
MG:
Just as far as you can see there's starfish on the beach and this person is just picking one up at a time throwing it back in the ocean one at a time, right? But they're miles to go and sometimes that can feel futile. Like how can I make enough difference if it's only one starfish at a time? And I think, you know, again you could see that I think you take that as an example of people who run really high volume clinics. They are making a difference also because people are getting results otherwise they wouldn't come. And they're able to see more people, so you're helping more starfish by running busy practices.
But again, back to my colleague who practiced TCM for many, many years, she was getting to a place where she really wanted to slow down in her practice, and that came at the time she learned the channels, which has allowed her to slow down because people are getting better and literally leaving her practice, right? So again, it's a different model, I think, when you treat people, you're working with people for some period of time, they truly heal, and then they move on in the world, and somebody else comes in, right? So we don't have to necessarily to have a volume practice to- I think that's- ... make a difference.
Mason:
So cool.
MG:
But I'm also not trying to discredit the volume practice either, because you are making a difference I just think sometimes, like, our expectations of the difference that we can make is calibrated incorrectly. We think we can't reverse the critical diagnosis. We can help the symptoms, but this person will never be well, and I don't personally believe that. I do think that symptoms can be eliminated as the disease process reverses, but are we willing to go all in, right? You know, you ask somebody to quit drinking coffee every day, and they're like, "Hell no. No. I'm just not." And we're like, "That's fine. I get it. I'm just making a recommendation to you." Right? Like, so how much are you willing to change, you know? My life personally does not look at all what it looked like 10 years ago, right, 'cause it's massive amounts of change.
Mason:
Which is actually Dao.
MG:
But, right, but, like, because I wanted something different, right? So okay, so when Anne says to me, "Have you considered..." Well, I'm gonna listen, Mm-hmm ... right? And then maybe I have to find the middle ground, right? So when she tells me, "You are done with coffee, and you are done being vegan," I'm, "Yes, ma'am." Right? Because, like, I trust the expertise. I trust that she's looking out for my transformation, right? So I feel like when we develop that relationship with our clients, with our patients, then they get different results, too, right? Because we're using these channels that support them in being willing to change. We try to educate, you know, about food, diet, lifestyle, mindset, right? And we help them shift, and then they're different on the other end.
Mason:
Ah,
MG:
I think- So then there, there's one starfish.
Mason:
You're a total Daoist. It's change. Book of Changes. I mean, that's the hardest part. I mean-
MG:
It's
Mason:
super
MG:
hard. Are you kidding?
Mason:
It... Yeah.
MG:
I mean, I always say, I wish that I was someone who could just, like, drive through the McDonald's drive-through for dinner and, like, you know, it's been a rough day for whatever reason, so instead of digging into my feelings about that, let's just, like, have a couple of margaritas and move on the next day. But now I know better, and that sucks, you know? Like, sometimes it's not fun to know better. But as time goes by, you realize, wow, okay Life is really different now that I know better. Now that... I guess I shouldn't use the word... See, that's why I'm not a good Taoist. Like, I'm calling it better, whereas I should just say it's different, right? Well, I'm, I'm- Like now that I know
Mason:
different ... now though, I think it's goes from like the process of change always starts with liver, and is always visionary, that gets idealistic, and is like, "I'm gonna put every starfish back and I'm never gonna stop." And then it moves to the heart of alignment, of joy, and yep, I get... And then as you move over to the yi of the spleen and the intellect kicks in, which I think like maybe in, in this cycle we're both there, where it starts going like, "Hang on a second. In terms of massive contribution that aligns with the original vision, I've gotten idealistic. That's why I'm getting frustrated. I need to actually ground down." And the intellect is like, there's right and there's wrong.
It's just a process of Tao and change before we can come back to the lung and mourn the vision that was lost, and then or- originally come back into the water where there's wisdom and there's like the rules dissipate. And you know, I think both of you and me are probably in stages where we need the intellect to lock in and be like, "No, this is what I'm doing. This is not... And I'm grounding into impact. I need to not do that. I need to do this." And that's a great stage of Tao evolution as well. And then we'll keep on cycling through and we'll probably talk in 10 years or something and be like, have a margarita together, get some, get some drive-through and know that that was probably not something that we... Doesn't actually have any power over us.
And we'll, like that'll be a one little jaunt we have and it doesn't affect us, and then we'll move on to the next visionary thing that we have.
MG:
I love that assessment. That's gold. That's so good. So good.
Mason:
So bring it into land. What's next for your practice and your big move? And now w- since something is landing, I can feel it and see it and- Mm-hmm ... real grounding into a non-oscillating spleen, yi, intellect, and then ready to kind of like lock in through the metal, like what is coming next?
MG:
I, I feel that a bit myself. Well, I think, you know, we're in the midst of a move, moving to France, so life is gonna be very different in a lot of different ways. But once we're settled there, hoping to do more teaching and small groups online, perhaps some retreat style work, one-on-one intensive kind of stuff. Just have somebody come one at a time. We work together for, you know, five days. We learn the diet, we work on our minds, like this kind of stuff. I'm really still trying to work, I guess, work through the thought process. What do I wanna do? Like, as I-- You know, when we get friends that come and work with us professionally, we can also see into their lives. You know, we see them in the clinic, and then we go over to their houses later, and it kinda gives us that perspective of one thing is happening in the treatment room, but then they go back to their regular lives.
And seeing that kind of has given me a perspective of, okay, how could I help more deeply for people who are willing and able to do that, to work five days in a row or something like that, right? In an intensive one-on-one retreat style. Like, how could we go really deep, have a really big change, like lots of neuroplasticity, right? If we wanna talk in like Western terms, so that then when you return to your old life, you're different.
Mason:
Mm.
MG:
They're different, right? And then everything else, again, is gonna flow differently. There are gonna be big adjustments, right? And that could be difficult for the family maybe, like with growing pains or whatever, but I don't know. Sometimes I just feel like an hour in clinic is not enough, and could we go deeper and then have really big transformations? So that's what I'm brainstorming at the moment
Mason:
I mean, to bring it full circle into the broken promise that I had with the listeners in defining what a barefoot doctor is, to bring in like the, the- Oh,
MG:
gosh
Mason:
that's essentially from what my understanding, and I'd love to hear yours, like that movement towards the whole point of a barefoot doctor that was traveling and spend time in places, there was no hiding in clinic what else is going on in terms of dynamics in the village, what's going on at home. There was no hiding any aspect of life from the barefoot doctor. He knew it. Oh. That's kind of exactly of it. When you were talking, I was like, "Ah, that is, that's where, you know, that kind of like landscape is what you're moving towards."
MG:
I had honestly never thought about that. Like, when you're the small town doctor, like in a village, you would know everyone and what's going on. For a while, I was doing home visits prior to getting an office, and that was very insightful as well. Like, when you go into someone's home and there's a lot going on and different things, and they're telling me their child, I'm there to see their child, and their child has this severe chronic issue, and they've missed 30 days of school already this year, but there's like somebody hammering on the roof, and then there's like a cleaning crew at the house, and then somebody else is knocking at the door and, you know, you start seeing all these things swirling around and you're like, "Okay, that's a different picture," right? And that may or may not have been mentioned because we just think that's normal now, right? Like-
Mason:
Yeah ...
MG:
somebody asked me one time, "Are you a stress denier?"
Mason:
Oh.
MG:
You know, because my acupuncturist would say to me- Yeah ... "You know, so how are things? How are, how are you feeling? You know, are you doing this and this and that?" "Oh, I'm good. I'm good," right? Those patients that say everything's fine, that to me is like a landmine now. Like, when somebody says, "Everything's good," I'm like, "Uh-huh, but you're in here with a chronic disease." Right? So I think what I'm really interested in is connecting the dots, 'cause I see how I've been there too. I didn't think that this was a problem. I didn't think my lifestyle was anything to even mention. Mm. That's just what we do. We're busy, modern people who have lots of interests and responsibilities, and so that's just how it is, right? Like now knowing what I know, if... How could I sort of impart that to someone who's interested in having a big shift?
Because maybe they have that chronic problem that they're not getting any movement with in another way. Like they've tried, again, they've tried all the things. Yeah. Maybe to
Mason:
include- I'm so excited. Very excited for our UK- So- ... and European listeners, and anyone who's on a European jaunt who's like, "You know what? In the middle of my holiday I'm gonna go and spend five days over here in..." Where in France are you gonna be?
MG:
In the south of France.
Mason:
Oh.
MG:
So just north of Montpellier.
Mason:
Oh, come on.
MG:
So, uh-
Mason:
Come on, people.
MG:
Yeah, yeah. Well- Get
Mason:
over there. Well,
MG:
anyway, this has been so fun. Thank you for all the ideas. I feel like this has been a good, like fleshing things out conversation in my mind.
Mason:
Oh, fun. Yeah, me... And likewise, I have, yeah, real- like, put a few dots together. Haven't had this conversation really deeply in a couple of years, and been really nice to kind of, yeah, lock a couple of things in. And, you know, going through an intellect era, I'm also having to just let my business be a business and not have the weight of the world upon it, and compartmentalize these conversations into a podcast, and, uh- Yeah that's as much as I can or want to do anymore. And then go and explore this in another way, rather than projecting that onto the business. So that's been a further, a furthering of this process for me as well, so thanks for that.
MG:
Yeah. Well, like I said, I'm excited to have you on, on my show as well, and I look forward to it.
Mason:
Heck yeah. Well, everyone, you heard it at the top of the podcast, or w- well, let's just drop your website again right now so everyone can go and see you there.
MG:
Oh, yeah. It is drmgmccullough.com. And same on the socials, drmgmccullough on Instagram and Facebook, Substack. My podcast is The Original Medicine podcast. I'm gonna follow that. Available on Spotify, Apple, YouTube.
Mason:
Go follow that right now everybody. So the usuals. Yeah. Go get onto it, especially Instagram and Spotify, and subscribe and follow. Thank you so much. What a cool chat.
MG:
Thank you so much. Oh my gosh, this was so fun.
Mason:
See you later.
MG:
Bye.
