Keeping the brain nourished, free from toxicity and active is one of the keys to epic health and longevity. In this awesome interview Mason dives deep into the neural world with brain health expert Jo Grabyn.
Neurodegenration is a current epidemic in the West and it is getting worse. Modern medicine has yet to get to the root cause of the premature ageing of the brain. One of the amazing distinctions to come out of this interview is how there are SIX general types of Alzheimer's, not just one. Mason and Jo explore how lifestyle and environmental factors play major roles in creating these diseases/symptoms; this means the power is in your hands to make changes.
You will learn:
Who is Jo Grabyn?
Jo Grabyn has a Bachelor of Health Science (Nutritional Medicine), and studied psycho-neuro-immunology (PNI) and psycho-neuro-endocrinology (PNE); basically, how your thinking creates and changes brain chemistry, affecting your hormones, your immune system and your whole body in turn. Jo is qualified in the Bredesen Protocol (also known as the MEND Protocol), making her one of the few in Australia who can use this method to tackle and reverse—or prevent—the onset of early Alzheimer’s disease and dementia. She trained recently with the institute of functional medicine studying neurodegeneration on a deep level and the integrative medicine for mental health.
ResourcesJo Grabyn website
Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?
Check Out The Transcript Here:
Mason: Hello everybody. Thanks for stopping by. Once again, got a very exciting podcast for you today, and with my friend, Jo Grabyn. We recorded this a number of months ago when I was launching the Neural Nectar.
Now I know Jo because through her clinic, Bounce Matters in Manly, Sydney, she was ordering a lot of Lion's Mane and since went on to use Neural Nectar, and that's how we connected. So she is a specialist in neurodegeneration brain health, brain optimization, and really stoked to get you onto this conversation of how brain health is an amalgamation of our physical health, how the brain ... and some different nuances about how the brain and the gut are really connected, and a couple of little goodies in terms of what you can do lifestyle-wise to really jump on that prevention bandwagon and ensure that your brain health is woken for the long-term.
Just wanted to point out, there are a couple of articles we have over at the website as well. One called, " Welcome to Your Brain" and the other called "The Taoist Brains". I'm going to put links to those in the show notes. Go check them out, pour yourself in Neural Nectar and enjoy this epic conversation with my brainy friend Jo.
Mason: Jo Grabyn has a Bachelor of Health Science and Nutritional Medicine and has studied ... Let me see if I'm getting this right. It's been a tongue twister for early in the morning, psychoneuroimmunology and psychoneuroendocrinology. So it's basically how your thinking creates and changes brain chemistry, affects hormones, the immune system and the whole body in turn.
Most recently, she's qualified in the Bredesen Protocol, also known as the Dale Protocol, making her one of the few in Australia who can use this method to tackle reverse or prevent, which we love, the onset of early Alzheimer's and dementia.
Just recently, she's trained with the Institute of Functional Medicine, studying neurodegeneration in deep level and the integrative medicine for mental health over in America. She operates from her clinic, Bounce Matters in Manly, Sydney. Jo, welcome.
Jo Grabyn: Thanks, Mason. Hi, how are you doing?
Mason: Yeah, super awesome. Thanks for jumping on. How is it down in Manly today?
Jo Grabyn: Warm, sunny and the sky is blue.
Mason: Magic. Yeah. I think it's starting to kind of peer out. Sun’s peering out in Byron as well, so we're on. So let's jump into health and brain health. We've kind of haven't had a chance to go deep on how to have a chat despite the fact that we've had the intention to, for some time we've been connected through SuperFeast and I've gone and checked out what you're doing and I could just tell from looking at your website. I think it was years ago, when we first connected just how much I would have loved having a conversation with you, and it's awesome here to jump on.
Do you want to just say a quick hello to everybody, introduce yourself, anything that I might have missed?
Jo Grabyn: Yeah, I think you've pretty much covered much of it. I'm really excited to be here because my passion for a long time has been looking at how we can facilitate mind-body medicine for brain and mental health, which obviously includes gut, as well and because I actually have my own history through both sides of it. My grandpa died of Alzheimer's when I was 11, so I lived it and I'm just very passionate about looking at everything that we do and we know that these processes, particularly on the brain health side of things starts 20 or 30 years in advance.
Now my theory is, if you can prevent something, isn't that a heck of a lot better than actually trying to turn it around once you get there because it's a much harder journey once someone's actually fully established or diagnosed with a neurodegenerative disease. And there's just so much in life now that comes to that. I'm really passionate about working with kids that have got mental health problems and right through to people who have been watching or helping their families or their parents deal with neurodegenerative disease and go, "Hey, this doesn't have to be you. This is not your destiny kind of thing."
Mason: Yeah, it's really nice to see you're turning a corner because it was, I believe for a long time and I don't know whether I'm just in a bubble here or you're on the ground there, whether it is becoming more accepted than these are preventable. I feel like that's becoming even more of a mainstream narrative now. But again, I might just be in my little Byron bubble up here. What do you feel?
Jo Grabyn: I mean, I'm a little bit in that same level as you as far as the world I live in people are talking about it, but often I do have doctors who are referring patients to me because the doctors just do not know what to do. They're just not taught anything about prevention, and they are often saying medications aren't working for people, they're having women particularly, we know that Alzheimer's in particular is ... About 67% of Alzheimer's people that are diagnosed are actually female.
And so looking at ... It's a stigma. Women don't want to even talk to their friends about the fact that they can't remember their words and they can't finish a sentence and like, "Oh, God, what was I just talking about?" And if they go to their GP, their GP just goes, "Oh, you're really stressed, or you had divorce, or you're a single mom or you work full time." And they come up with all of these excuses because they don't understand that actually there is something going on underneath this.
Yes, stress is definitely a part of it and it's a driver, but there's so much more to the picture. When they negate people by saying, "Oh, it's just stress," then people think they're winching about nothing and it's all in their head. 78 is in your head, but it's actually right through your entire body and it just happens to be that that's how it's presenting for you. So I think it is much more accepted and people are feeling that it's safer to talk about it now.
Mason: Yeah. I think one of the things it's kind of behind the ... I don't know, the gray matter cutting is, what's actually going on? Because I've had that as a kid I just being told that I was stressed and they tried to put on medication because of that stress. It's so weird because it's such an ambiguous concepts to be going for when modern medicine is so nuts and bolts.
So let's get into a little bit of like, you mentioned there that the brain and obviously the body are connected. So when there's going to be something going on in the brain, there's something going on down in the body and the brain is the body, of course. I'm not trying to create that separation but when we're talking about neurodegeneration, whether you want to start in the body or the brain itself, just let us know some of the things that are happening, what it is that it's actually going on. You mentioned there, if you're losing a few words or you're not remembering so well, what's actually rubber hitting the road going on in the body?
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. Okay. So this is a lot and it can be different for lots of different people. I think one of the ways to address this is looking at the fact that we used to talk about Alzheimer's and now we actually talk about Alzheimer's due to what. So we're looking at potentially, at least six or a combination of six different drivers for dementia and more cognitive and moderate cognitive decline.
So you're looking at things like toxins, you're looking at things like high sugar levels, some people have heard that Alzheimer's is also called diabetes type 3, and you don't have to be a diagnosed type 2 diabetic to convert to a type 3. If you're insulin resistant, then your blood sugar levels can already be high enough to be causing inflammation and causing damage in your brain. It can be hormonal. So it can be particularly women, we used to just think about the fact that estrogen dropped off when you go through menopause and now we see so much hormonal imbalance in teenagers, women in their 20s and 30s, and that's when they're starting to get the memory issues and estrogen is very closely linked to brain function.
And then you've got our toxic environment that we live in, fluoride in the water. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks so much for that government because fluoride is a neurotoxin.
Mason: How does that actually ... Just out of my curiosity, how have you found in your work, because you've been gone deep in studying with experts all around the world and you just got back from America last year or this year?
Jo Grabyn: Both.
Mason: Both, okay.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. I knew you before I actually went there.
Mason: Just very briefly, how is fluoride because it's kind of hitting the mainstream a little bit more. It's been like extreme conspiracy theorist and now it's kind of getting like, okay, there's actual data on it being a neurotoxin. How does that actually interact in the brain?
Jo Grabyn: As far as the chemistry, I suppose I personally look more at where people got toxic load. It's inflammatory. Anything that creates inflammation, whether that be in your brain or in your gut because of the vagus nerve, the minute you've got or the millisecond really that you've got inflammation then you've got it in the other. So down to a chemical level to explain that to you on probably not technical enough.
Mason: But is it inflammation that it's causing? Is that on - ?
Jo Grabyn: Yes.
Mason: Okay. So that was -
Jo Grabyn: It's inflammation and it can actually lodge in the brain. So a little bit of mercury, these metals and these toxins have very, very long half life, which means when they come into the system and they cross the blood brain barrier, they stay there for years. Mercury's 20 years or more before your body can even think about starting to detoxify it.
What I'm saying, it's really interesting is when I do have patients who are coming in with mild to moderate cognitive decline or even they have already had, they might come to me saying, "I've got chemo brain because I had chemotherapy." And then we find out, we dig deeper and find out actually they have a written form of Alzheimer's because of whether it be their job that they had.
I've got a lady who was a led light artists, but then she came to me with chemo brain in her. That's what she thought she had because five years ago she did go through chemotherapy. And then when we did her heavy metal, she had high fluoride, she had high lead, she has lots of fillings, so she had high mercury and then she had high platinum which was complemented by chemotherapy.
So it doesn't really matter what metal or what toxins we're talking about. Once they're there, they're really hard to get out and they do damage while they're there, and it depends on the person as to how that's going to play out.
Mason: And these various forms, I know there's six, I'm sure that's even generalizing in terms of how many types of Alzheimer's in neurodegeneration there are.
Jo Grabyn: That still doesn't cover all of it, but that's how we try to categorize it to keep it a little bit simple.
Mason: Yeah, which is nice. That's an awesome ... I appreciate it. I got to use. We've got a simplified in some sense. Otherwise it's not classifiable further. What we're trying to do is empower people to get on the prevention bandwagon and also get into their sovereign health a little bit so they can understand what's going on without understanding the whole science, the whole neuroscience. I just wanted to ask, is that kind of something that's becoming more well-known now? Where can people find out more about these six types? Or is that something that you use in your clinic?
Jo Grabyn: Well, it's part of Dale Bredesen's work and he did actually publish his first book in August last year called "The End of Alzheimer's" and so Dale did this a lot more. He was the one who first broke it down and just a little bit of clarity on Dale. Dale is 25 years, he was a standard neurologist who was absolutely hell bent on finding the silver bullet for Alzheimer's. And his wife is also a doctor and he goes, "Don't you hate it when for 25 years your wife's telling you something? And she kept telling me it was metabolic and life-style, and eventually I had to concede and say yes. And that was when we started digging into it."
Mason: Far out, was he looking at genetics mostly?
Jo Grabyn: Yeah, they were looking at genetics. They were looking at vascularity. They were really digging into the beta-amyloid plaques that have plaques, there's so many different things and -
Mason: Getting close.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah, you just got to look at the massive failure rate and every drug that they've ever trialed against sales on us. Some of the very occasionally they'll make it to stage three, which is what they've got to get through to get something listed. It's literally like a graveyard of drug failures like it's really horrific and Dale's been in space for a long time and he really wanted it to be the silver bullet and just the more he dug, the more he realized how complex this condition is, and dementia in general because dementia is really an umbrella or it just happens to be that Alzheimer's as a group is the most prevalent. So he'd probably talk about it more.
Mason: Okay, great. You mentioned the gut-brain connection that's been like it's really a snappy thing that I know that a lot of Instagram, health influences, love like weapon that won out at the moment but you started making that connection between the vagus nerve. Just wanted to quickly touch on that to really because just for my own sake, it's always nice to get a little bit of like, "What's actually going on? Where's that connection actually lie?" And also that appreciation, for inflammation here, inflammation there because quite often I know since growing up there was no connection between the brain and the body and just thinking like ... And I know a lot of people are like, "That's okay, I've got my brain, I've got my mind and I don't really know about the body, go a little bit." But I was like, "Where's that? Is there any truth in that at all or is it just full connection?"
Jo Grabyn: Full connection. There's no ... It's interesting because I have some patients who feel that they're very well versed in medicine and in general health. And even when I started talking brain health with them, they're just like, "Jo I can't believe I never actually joined the dots." And it's like, well, a food like gluten for example, we know now according to research will inflame 100% of human digestive tracks at some level. In the millisecond that happens there's an immediate sort of equal response in your brain. And you've got to think about the fact that 70% to 80% or more of our primary chemistry like dopamine and serotonin, et cetera, are made in our guts.
So when the drugs were actually designed to target your brain, it's like, yeah, no wonder they don't work for very many people because you're looking, you're targeting the wrong place. So gut health really is at the crux of everything.
Mason: Yeah. Fine, I mean, always think about the fact that it's just that that reductionism of modern medicine, which can be, that compartmentalizing can be useful as well, especially when it's integrated, which is possibly not integrated at the moment, but you can see it when going at a cadaver, and then breaking up a body that has just a scalpel straight through the fascial and all the tissue to go, now that's that part. That's that part where actually without the scalpel, there's no differentiation. You can't tell through the tissue when one organ or muscle or fascial connection starts and stops, there's no start and stop.
There is that kind of unification and needs to be acknowledged and so you're obviously working on that level which is amazing. So here we got a lot of people listening to this possibly with people who have got neurodegeneration in their lives or themselves and also a lot of people here getting on the front foot and ensuring that they fortify their body and their brain tissue, giving themself the best option.
That's what we want, right? And so when we're aging just with not even just gracefully and with grace, with dignity, but just being like on fire, not literally inflamed, not inflammation, but just with rockin neural health. So with all of that in mind, I want to have a look at like, when someone comes into your clinic and you begin that process with them, where do you take them?
Jo Grabyn: Okay. So I always say to someone before they come into their first session, because my first session with someone, it's long and so we go broad and we go deep. And I'm like, "If you imagine your entire life from the time that your mom was pregnant with you until today, think about it as a jigsaw puzzle and you didn't get to walk into my office, you're going to take the lid off, and you're going to dump that upside down on my desk, because we're going right back to your family history. We're looking at what things were like for your mum when she was pregnant with you, possibly even life prior to conception. We're going to be looking at sort of genetic, what does the medical family tree look like, and so it's not just going to be going, "Oh, you've got someone with Alzheimer's or you've got someone with dementia, so maybe that's the thing for you." It could be, "You got someone with cancer in your family or an autoimmune disease, so let's look at the genetics that can actually drive any of those things."
And then we dig through, "What types of environments have you lived in, what was your emotional environment when you were small and throughout your life, and when did you have medicines for the first time? When did you have antibiotics or what ... Were you vaccinated, Were you're not vaccinated? And were there traumas, were there accidents? What sports did you play? Did you live in a different country? Did you spend a chunk of time maybe living in a really polluted city? Did you live in a house that had mold in it? Did you have glandular fever when you're a teenager or maybe you were traveling in Africa and got malaria?"
Past infections can have the capacity to treat a things that they enjoy doing it for awhile but having an underlying manifestation. And generally, we always come back to the gut because the more and more we neglect there's the more research coming out every day. Even like last year there was haste of research that came out around the link between Parkinson's and gut health. So I dig through the whole lot and it's really interesting because people are like, "Wow, I didn't know there was so much to know about me or so much that mattered."
Mason: Okay. That's you rattling off all these wholesome, like into these places to investigate and I can feel like I often get excited when I think about just how much there is to dig deep. And especially when you felt like what was the environment for when you're in utero, even looking at what was the pre-conception kind of vibes, what was happening when you were an embryo and you were unfolding. I don't know whether when you get, because there's a difference. I know a lot of people can get told that and be like, "Oh my gosh, this is so much work." And then lead like, obviously then we go back towards being dependent on a medical system or an institution which is a fine choice but when you can just have a smile on your face and go like, "All right, just let's go get some clues, just so like the front of my mind as I'm going through and trying to figure out what the source of this thing is, I can get it and just have a little bit of data there or I can just have a little bit of insight just knowing, just remembering."
And like you said, "When was the first time you had medication? What was that medication, what were the vaccines? What were the combination of vaccines that you had? What animals were around you when you were a child?" I'm sure all these things, like I'm getting excited as you were kind of reminding me to stop just considering those things more and more because like you started in the embryo and as we unfold, brain and gut are connected and we just keep on unfolding and keep on unfolding within a pattern right, and so it makes sense. We're going to have to go back and see when we've put little stakes into that unfolding.
Okay. And so from there, what do you find? I know this is going to be a general question. What are you hoping to find that will take you to the source of what's causing neurodegeneration in the first place?
Jo Grabyn: Okay. So I want to have a look at the genetics, so I'm sort of asking those questions to go, "How deep do I need to dig into genetics?" I want to look at related gut health and so anything that ... Because we know that if you give a child under the age of three antibiotics, she may as well inject an atomic bomb on their gut as far as they might combine it. And it's been very hard to recover. So the gut's going to be the major thing, the major place for us to start.
Is it potentially a toxic load, some sort of environmental thing that has been a really big thing? Has there been a big infection? And one of the big things that I've probably learned more about in the last eight months is, I always ask the question, "Have you ever had a major concussion or a whiplash injury or a blow to the head?"
And it's interesting because we now understand that there can be slight shifts in the cervical spine that can actually change the way the brain detoxes. When I start asking people those questions, they can be in their 50s and they're like, "Oh, yeah, when I was four, I fell out of a bunk bed and woke up in the hospital five days later." And I'm like, "That's pretty profound, and that's going to have had a big impact very early on." Or it might be, "I was a gymnast and I had hits, obviously I had lots of falls," and things like that. Or, "More recently I had a young girl who in the last three years has had two major accidents, car accidents with huge whiplash injuries."
So sometimes it can take three or four sessions for people to even remember that five or 10 or 25 years ago they had this particular accident, but it might be what we need to know. It might be the key because people always say to me, "Jo, what's too trivial to share with you?" I'm like, "Until you tell me, I don't know because it actually might be that one, the last key that we're looking for." Do you know what I mean?
Mason: Absolutely. It must be cool. I can just kind of imagine those sessions and then you leave like two hours for those intro sessions. I can imagine you entered into that vortex and there'd just be one of those places where you've set up the space and you know within that vortex, that information will rise up. Do you find that? I think I'm one of those things when I come, I'll just forget, but being provided, I think I would've forgotten. Maybe I want to remember it but it won't come up, but when the space is provided with, it's a vacuum for that information, does it generally ... Do you find like it's always there, like it always comes out?
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. It doesn't always come out in the two hours, I use two to three hours up front and then it would always come out. But that's a bit daunting for people, so it's a bit like peeling the onion and there is, I mean, literally, like I said, I've seen it take three sessions with someone. So we have the big one, and then one day they'll just go, "Oh, I forgot to tell you about this accident where I fell down the stairs and I landed on a concrete tile and I woke up in intensive care." I'm like, "Yeah. That might matter. Can we have a chat about that?"
So it's just providing that safe space and then it's kind of starting to unlock the pieces for them so that they don't come out in that first two hours, all of a sudden, I get an email going, "Oh, Jo, I just remembered this," and it's awesome because that actually gives me somewhere else to look if we don't find the answers here.
Mason: That's cool. And I want to quickly touch on the ... You said the brain detoxification channel. I'm not sure whether you said channel, but the brain detoxifying, I'm just fascinated by that. And just in case we don't get a chance to come around and talk about it again, can you just mention that pathway and that mechanism?
Jo Grabyn: Yeah, it's something that I'm still getting my head around because I did some training with a professor last year. I don't know if you've heard of Dr. Daniel Leeman.
Mason: Oh, yeah, of course. I've seen him talk in La two and a half years ago. It was amazing.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. So I actually spent some time with the professor that runs his New York office in June last year after that functional medicine conference. And he's like, "Oh, Jo, have you ever heard of craniocervical syndrome?" I'm like, "No."
So he showed me through a case of a patient who had come to them. He'd been told by his GP that he had dementia. He was about 70 and he's going, "There's no way in hell I've got dementia, your full of it, t hat's not the case." So he went to them and they did the SPEC scanning and basically they did an upright MRI, which is actually quite challenging to get. There's not many of them in Australia. But what they found is he had a slight shift in his atlas and access. So we say one C2, and it was enough that it wasn't changing his function as any physical function, but what it was doing was it was making the cerebral spinal fluid actually pull in the back of his head and his brain, so it couldn't process down around the spine, which is where more of where the body then allows the toxins to go into the lymphatic system.
So he had basically, I think about seven months. So these very specific type of chiropractic treatment of which there's only two chiropractors in Sydney who are qualified to do it. And slowly but surely they shifted those to then abroad to bring them back into line. And by the time that he'd finished his treatment, his brain was back functioning the way that it had before he had any symptoms of dementia whatsoever.
So that was done with the atlas orthogonal treatment with hyperbaric, with nutrition, supporting everything, but basically it's like, "Well, hey, there are so many possibilities." And it was only the fact that this guy turned around, "There is no way that I have dementia." I think he was a CEO or something. He was used to controlling things and it was great because he went digging for it.
The more of these people I learn I don't necessarily always get to learn in massive depth, but I then have all of these, I have my brains trust the people that I could reach out to and ask things about because it's like, "What if it's that for that person?"
Mason: Yeah. Got you. Okay. So when you're going in and so you're assessing what's going on within a person's brain and you're looking at the source, which I feel everyone can do, you don't have to be clinical, you can just go and have a look back at your past, and then from there, what are you finding are the ... You sort of covered the main sources of what are going to be causing neurodegeneration?
Jo Grabyn: Sorry to interrupt, Mason. There's probably one that I haven't specifically spoken about, and that's mitochondrial dysfunction. So we know that the mitochondria are basically, all your cells have lots of them. They're kind of like a little generators, and actually if you look it up they very cool, they look like like a little generator. And your heart cells and then you brain neuron, so you heart cells have about 5,000 mitochondria per cell and your brain has about 800 per cell, your brain uses a whole lot more energy than your heart does.
So we're finding that there are more and more things in our environment that are damaging our mitochondria and that's why you see lots of fatigue and it is probably the biggest thing that you see with mitochondrial dysfunction but it is a huge player in this space.
Mason: Yeah. Right. Well let's go into that. If you're feeling that we'll start with the mitochondria, otherwise the gut, wherever you feeling to dive in into what we're doing both in treatment and prevention and how we're going to get on top of this.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. So we can probably start with the gut because you got two ways. The first one to get angry given the fact that you put things in your mouth, it comes out the other end and it touches your gut all the way through, which always makes me laugh when there are certain specialists out there who should know better and they just say, "Yeah, it doesn't matter what you ate." Funny that.
I think our guts does leaves us wide open to risk. So a huge amount, massive percentage of our immune system is based in our guts because it's our body trying to protect us it's where we have our good bacteria, it's where we have our bad bacteria. Our good bacteria help us to actually digest our food and turn it into nutrients and components, chemical components that our body can actually then absorb and use. And we have genetics that will come into play there as to how much we need as far as whether that's detoxifying or cleaning up or producing chemistry. I'm trying to think about how to make this simple so that's not always my strongest point, but we do ...
Food really matters and the right food for each of us really matters. And appropriate fiber and looking at probiotics, the quality of everything that is, it's not something that you buy off a shelf that's 10 bucks versus if there's a comparative product, it's got heaps of research on it for 80 bucks, there's a reason your paying a difference.
But also our diet, our diet is full of food-like products, so it takes a really conscious effort for people to eat seasonally and eat fresh food and where possible a chemical free or organic because everything that touches our gut is going to affect our general health, and then obviously that drives our brain health. And it also drives our mitochondrial health. So things like infections, glandular fever is a shocker for setting us up for issues with mitochondrial health down the track. But so are toxins, so is living in a moldy house.
I had a chronic fatigue patient who is 48, he'd suffered with chronic fatigue on and off since he was 15. And when I dug into, "Have do you ever lived in a mold?" And he goes like, "Yeah, I grew up in New Zealand on a farm, on the lake side of a hill side. The house just never dried out." I was going, "Oh, my God. Okay. So now we need to go back and start there." Mitochondria, I think we also ... If your adrenals aren’t happy down the track, your mitochondria aren't going to be happy.
Mason: That's what I was like ... I've always made that connection between the adrenals and kidneys being where, like the storehouse of the baseline energy where the body is kept in this, likewise in mitochondria, like those little kidneys of the cells holding that Jing energy.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. I love looking at Chinese medicine because it was all learned through observation, so it's very different to western medicine which came down to, "Let's just chop everything up and then figure out what's where." And if you can't see it, then it must not be there. So to me the beauty, the art of healing is actually very much bringing together the two and looking at all of those components.
Jo Grabyn: So there's lots of things in our world at are toxic to ourselves and to our mitochondria. I think in the '70s and '80s, the main thing that we were using for oils were rancid seed oils and we'd just sit there.
Mason: Yeah, pretty much. So prominent still though.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. Every cell has a liquid boiler around it and that's made up from Omega 3 or arachidonic acid, EPA, DHA, phospholipids and they all get displaced when you're having really crappy fats in your diet, they end up being displaced by the wrong ones. And then it damages the transport. You can't get nutrients in and out, you can't get nutrients in, you can't get waste out, that's effect with mitochondria.
Mason: So all of a sudden the membrane becomes a GMO canola field rather than - like a nice marine essential, fatty, saturated space that's actually conductive and can open and close with ease and communicate with the rest of the body.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah, same as icon and myelin on all of your nerves. So when our nerves act by literally, it's like the action bounces from myelin to myelin, to myelin, to myelin, to myelin along the nerve shelth. That's where things start to go wrong with multiple sclerosis. And if you've got the wrong fats in your diet or too lot of fat in your diet and then you end up with a condition like that, then it's actually damaging those. It's about having those good fats. And -
Mason: So what are your favorite fats? How do you get them into your diet?
Jo Grabyn: Yeah, my favorites are coconut oil, avocado, macadamias, oily fish, a little bit on flax, but I'm a little bit wary and my other of my passion is hemp. So basically because our ... In the ideal world, our mega six Omega 3 ratio would be 4:1. In the western diet, it's more like 20 or more to 1, but hemp oil, hemp seed oil is actually 3.8 to 1. So it's as close as you're ever going to get it to the ratio that should be lining every single one of our cells.
Mason: Companion food for humanity, right?
Jo Grabyn: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Mason: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I was just interested when you're looking at the cell health, because again, it's getting a lot of attention now, which is amazing in the health scene anyway, and I hope that a lot of people are listening to this. If it's the first time you're hearing about your mitochondria and your membranes and your cell metabolism and heath, get amongst it. It's a very fun topic.
So we've got fats, so you've talked about the DHA and the EPA, and you're getting the ALA as well from the hemp and a number of places, likewise, I'm a little dubious when it comes to flax, I like using my colon cleanses when I do them, but much more inclined to go for a chia or something like that to get my ALA content. And I think there's a lot of ways worth mentioning Omega 3s get thrown out or around a lot. There are especially those essential DHA, EPA, and ALA, people will say, "Hemp and chia and flax that has all the Omega threes and that's all you need." But it's always worth mentioning that the DHA, and EPA are marine-based fatty acid, so it's one of the throw that out there because there's one that -
Jo Grabyn: Also ... Sorry to interrupt.
Mason: Go for it.
Jo Grabyn: What a lot of people don't realize is that the EPA and DHA is the form that your body is going to use. So if you're using a vegetable source, and I'm not saying they're not good, but it means that you have to have really efficient fatty acid metabolism to be able to convert those fats to the active version of Omega 3. And probably the one other fat that I forgot to mention is, I'm a really big fan of good, clean, organic, extra virgin olive oil, particularly in people with cholesterol issues. The biggest challenge is trying to find good quality.
Mason: Yeah. There's so many people ... I mean, there's a stone roller, a kind of a German guy that brought the technique over and he's in Victoria, but yeah, I think that's even a nice distinction for people to be like going for those kinds of qualities. Just think about something that's going to hold itself, that's not going to turn rancid and of course, as like a small batch is possible, because most of the time when all these things go rancid and becomes not so great for our health, it's through large production and transportation, either it didn't really go down the way that they were hoping. And so just like small local as possible, but just baby steps into it if you're starting out. Any other little things that you like doing for your mitochondria to get in there, and so many people are talking about cell hack your way to super health?
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. I can't say I love it, as in I like doing it, but I do it because it's everything for me and that's cold showers.
Mason: Oh, cool.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. So I think really cold showers is really important.
Mason: Yeah, I'm really happy you brought that up. Like that cold plunging it's magic. I like that. You're there jumping into the ocean in Manly in winter, if not, you're going to have to do it this winter.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. It's one of those things that's such a mental game because I hate cold and there's a reason I don't live in Melbourne anymore, but yeah, I do that because it's really good for me. People really underestimate sleep. Given my own health history, sleep is one of my, as far as I'm concerned, it is the greatest free medicine on the planet, and sleep quality is crucial and it's probably one of the biggest players that I see in patients who, whether we're talking brain health or mental health.
There's no one time out of the 10 they are getting not nearly enough sleep, really poor quality sleep or their sleep is just absolutely wrong. So that's an exercise and meditation, they're probably my key cases. They did some really cool studies, one that was published last year around ... Have you ever heard of BDNF?
So BDNF is Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor. It's a thing that actually helps you grow new brain cells. The Lions Mane.
Mason: Yeah, I get it, the nerve growth factor. Yeah, right.
Jo Grabyn: So they did some studies to say what type of exercise and what durations of exercise improved BDNF level. And there's been so much attention given to HIIT and CrossFit and short interval and that kind of stuff recently and they compared moderate cardio 45 to 60 minutes five days a week to HIIT training, 15 to 20 minutes to weight training. And I think we do need a combination of all of those. However, from a brain functionality and a brain health improvement process, you do actually need 45 to 60 minutes of moderate cardio a week, five days a week.
So it's sort of looking at that and going, "Well, how do I put that into my space?" So that was a real eye-opener for me because I'm an ex-endurance, I call myself a weekend warrior and I think I ... I don't know that you could ever call me an athlete. But exercise's been a huge part of my world, since I was like sort of 15, but just really interesting when you look at the research now that they're saying right here is we can actually see what's affecting the things that help our brain grow or the things that help our brain repair. So these are all things that helped play into that space.
Mason: Yeah. Wonderful. Okay. So we're talking about both ... This is both in treatment. We're talking about all these factors being the absolute bread and butter just to, I know and like, we are talking bread possibly a gluten-free bread or a local heirloom seed and grass fed butter.
So we're talking about the bread and butter basically of a therapeutic treatment and at the same time, you want to prevent the onset of a premature aging of the brain, these are those staples magic. Having a lifestyle, but the thing I like about that is it's a lifestyle that doesn't just end like revolve around brain health because there is such an integrated approach because quite often, if you're specializing in something, it's like, "Life is going to revolve around this thing that then happens to be the brain that I'm specializing in," but what you're talking about is just like supporting basically every organ, every organ function and so on. It's about them and all those systems that of course you've gone and studied the immune system and how that interplays with the brain as well. What was that code again?
Jo Grabyn: It was called psychoneuroimmunology.
Mason: Okay, that's right. Now I'm just fascinated there. In terms of immunity, what do you do for immunity? What's going on with the immune system inside of the brain or is it guarding the brain? You don't need to go too deep, but how's that working?
Jo Grabyn: So I think the thing is I try to not segregate things out too much. We can't just work on the brain's immunity as such. And to me, anything that I'm trying to facilitate through the brain, the gut is going to be first port, then removing toxins is going to be the next port and really managing stress. I don't think there's ... People bandy around the term stress all the time but then it's like you just meditate for stress or it's really not ... The systemic impact of it I think is really underrated.
So if you're incredibly stressed, that's going to flatten your immune system, but it's also going to make your hormones go. If we're stressed, we don't really need hormones because we can't be reproducing, we can't be doing all of the things that we need to do, and the body will actually, or the brain actually will say, "Okay, I actually need to re-route those hormones to the stress hormones because we need more of these stress hormones. So we don't need to do the other stuff."
So from an immune perspective, it's really looking at overall, we impact ... To me, we need to look at absolutely overall health to impact the immune system or the endocrine system, so all your hormones, your energetic system, your detoxification.
If we're working on all of it, there are things like functional foods. So the Chaga that you guys do I think is amazing for immunity and rest is really underrated, because someone's actually sick. A number of people that I get, they're like, "Yeah I sleep 3 or 4 hours a night." And it's like, "Yeah, but what do you do to relax?" "I watch TV”, awesome, more blue light oh fantastic, your giving your brain even more of what it needs. Thanks. Maybe turning the lights off, get some orange safety glasses and you just candle instead of halogen or fluoros or things that are just going to give you more light can trigger things off more.
Mason: So guys, Jo just kind of touched there, just in case you're not familiar with the blue light phenomena in lights and how it’s coming off our screen, that blue light, it's like the first thing in the morning, the sun is really nice and bright because it's got that blue light and it's like adrenalizing and it tells your body, "It's time to get up and wake." And then in the afternoon you watch it. It kind of goes, becomes more of a red and golden light because the blue begins to disappear because that blue's not appropriate to be hitting our eyes and telling our endocrine system, "Adrenalize time to wake up."
It's like cortisol, adrenaline, and in the western world, these lights and screens that we're looking at up until we're in bed have got that blue light and it just completely throws a nervous system and the endocrine system and so there are orange glasses, the blue blockers. For those of you that are on video effects, I've actually got an old pair sitting here. They make you look like a construction worker and for those of you that are on audio, you can go check out Earthing Oz. Have you got recommendations for places to get, that kind of stuff?
Jo Grabyn: I Optimize doing it. If things like you're firing your iPad, your screen, there's a really cool app called f.lux, which you can actually tell it where you are in the world and what time you go to bed and it actually starts drawing all the blue light out of screens but obviously you can't do that for TV, but I hate, what do I say to my patients is, because they want, "Do I really have to turn it off?" And it's , "Yeah, because when you look at that blue light, it's telling your brain that it's daytime and it stops making melatonin, and melatonin is what you need to be able to go to sleep and that's there for like 30 minutes and then it's gone.
So when you push through that tide, I need to go to sleep and then you wonder why you get wired again, it's because your body's just disintegrated that melatonin gone, "Right. Apparently we're not sleeping now."
Mason: You know what? One thing I think happens as well with that and I'm just kind of like it's kind of theory about it. It's just another thing that's doing hitting the pleasure center because there was a lot of serotonin in the morning and so most of the time to be like, "Ah," and get up and we feel good, but I feel like those lights on moment is like it's addictive and hitting that dopamine receptor as well.
I just kind of thought this is another element of where this is going to be bleeding the brain and the gut dry of that neurotransmitter dopamine. Another thing that was like, and at the same time, is at night picking up the screen and hitting notifications on your Facebook and boom, you hit that dopamine receptor again. It gets that pleasure and you go, "Pooh," and then next you put on the TV and it's being exciting ads come on that are there to make you get excited, remember your childhood and the dopamine receptor gets hit again and so and so forth.
There's just so many elements there and it gets complicated in a sense if you think about all of them and do I have to do that and do I have to do this? But I agree with you. It's just something to be aware of and just start to weaving into the lifestyle that consideration. Get f.lux on the computer, possibly just light a couple of candles, maybe just don't use your phone to bed, maybe turn the TV off and that chat, read books, it's much so much sweeter anyway, but at the same time I get it that for a lot of people it can be a big transition. So just have fun while doing it. I'd love to just talk and unless like ... Feel free to jump on into anything I just said, but then I love to just hear about your take in the use of hyperbaric and the role that oxygen plays in the brain and body's optimization.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. Awesome. So I mean, as you know, I just opened the first one on the north side of Sydney and that was because I found the hyperbaric about eight months ago, the second last trip that I did the U.S. and I'd always thought that hyperbaric is being, "Oh yeah, it's for diving and it helps sports people with recovery," but really have zero concept of what it did for the brain.
When you think about so many of us spend our time in that stress response place, when we're doing that, we're chest breathing, we're not belly breathing, so we're really not getting oxygenated the way we need to. And then when we're toxic and when we're surrounded by these, whether it be emotional toxicity or environmental toxicity, then nobody goes into oxidative stress. So we use up oxygen even more.
So the theory behind mild hyperbaric therapy is the fact that you increase the pressure slightly. It doesn't need to be increased to the level of the big hyperbaric hospitals for burns units and things, and it increases the uptake, the blood's ability to absorb about 30% more oxygen and deliver that around the body. So it actually helps grow new brain cells. It helps grow new blood vessels, it helps rebuild a connective tissue. It reduces inflammation.
So it helps with pain syndromes, but we look at, again, Dr. Daniel Leeman's clinic is where I learned a whole lot more about this, where they predominantly deal with neurological and psychiatric issues, and a lot of the stuff that they're working on too is with traumatic brain injury, concussion and in America the NFL.
Mason: Yeah, NFL. NRL here, right? Yeah.
Jo Grabyn: NRL here, yeah. So I don't know if you saw the movie Concussion with Will Smith, which was talking about the issues of the American football players who many of them were ending up with Alzheimer's in their late 40s and psychosis and all of these different brain conditions. And what they found was that the brain damage happening from ... Yeah, sure, a helmet actually stops your skull from being cracked, but it doesn't stop your brain from bouncing around inside your skull, which is not a very brain-friendly place, to be totally honest.
So then I start talking to them about, "What have you guys seen with Parkinson's, with Huntington's?" And they do some really cool scanning called SPEC scanning, which we can't get here. And with 40 hours in 30 days, you can see a brain that has all of these massive dents and things places where blood flows not going and there's no activity to a healthy brain or a dramatically improved brain function and capacity in a short period of time. When you consider it's completely safe, you just get to lie there and meditate, or read a book, or sleep or listen to music or whatever, and it's oxygen and it's actually supporting your body to coordinate a triple right of healing and to fix things that you didn't even really know there.
We use it for chronic fatigue. I'm seeing great results with Parkinson's, I've got patients with Lyme and mold going through, patients with severe arthritis. There's one lady who travels an hour and a half across Sydney in each direction because she's trying to not have to have a knee replacement and she's just like, "I can't get over how much better I feel in a short period of time."
So when you look at it from a brain perspective, if people are getting better quality sleep, they're less anxious, they can think more clearly, their brain folks slowly but surely dissipating. And it's like, "Damn, why wouldn't you do it?" I said the exact question to the professor that runs the New York office for Daniel. And I said, "Who would you not use it? Who would not get benefit?" And he's like, "Jo, there's no one who walks in the door who wouldn't." And even to the point that they have done some amazing studies on kids with cerebral palsy, now we know that with cerebral palsy kids don't have cerebral palsy in utero, it happens because there's an event in the process of birth that blocks oxygen to the brain and does damage.
So they do some really cool studies of these kids at sort of no hyperbaric, low level hyperbaric and in a really heavy duty stuff. And they basically found that the improvement was equivalent no matter what level of hyperbaric they had, but it was profound in the amount of functionality that they got back and improvement in their cognitive function as well as a physiological function just by being in hyperbaric therapy. Yeah, I'm a little bit passionate about that.
Mason: Yeah, and rightfully so. I mean even in one go down this route but even posttraumatic stress syndrome, but I'm saying that just even the results there, and I can imagine that that is always going to be a reflection that's not necessarily is going to be all in the head there is actually going to be stuff going on in the brain at the same time. So I just want to talk about viral load. I mean, we were talking about medicinal mushrooms before. I always want to hear your two cents on whether there is any viral-bacterial implication to brain degeneration or just like a brain function.
Jo Grabyn: Yes, massive. So one of the types of Alzheimer's that Dale talks about is actually called vile, which is viral and infectious. You've only got to look at things like Lyme. Lyme disease causes the most horrific brain symptoms for people, we forget the rest of the body and just think about how it affects massive brain fog, lack of concentration, no memory, can't read books anymore, it's -
Mason: Yeah. And that Lyme spiral-shaped gets neurological far out. It's like it's literally spiraling right into those neural cells and gets into the brain that's why we are like ... I mean, I would constantly tell everyone here, if you get bit and those symptoms start to come on, I mean, I experienced it just before Aya was born. There's a lot of herbs you can hit and even my top mentors who write the herbal protocols, who educate about what antibiotics do to the body are like, "If it's seeding there are antibiotics, this is one of the times."
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. Yeah. You've got to ... There are times when western medicine has done amazing things for us and everything has its place. Nothing ... Look, I'm not a fan of chemotherapy, but other than that, antibiotics and things, yeah, absolutely, they have their place. There's no doubt about it. Lyme is one of those. I think the other one that I really see being problematic for the brain is mold, and I hadn't heard much about mold illness and chronic inflammatory response syndrome. I mean, until I did that training with Dale and there's been a lot more work that I've done and study that I've done and people I've connected with over the last two years looking at the impact of water damaged buildings on brain function and overall physiology. And most of the presentations are neurological.
So whether they be mental health presentation or just ... There's 37 different symptoms if you have mold exposure, and that's because of the way that it gets into your brain pretty much through the nasal passages and sinuses but then once it's there, it affects everything.
So we've really got to be vigilant about this stuff and not just think, "Oh, well, hey I feel better, so I must be better." Let's rebuild your whole system. Make sure that you've got the nutritional biochemistry levels that you need. We see the zinc levels are generally really low in people with neurodegeneration, B12 levels are often really low, methylation doesn't work well so you need more of your brassicas, you need folates, not folic acid. You need to look at your magnesium levels. Magnesium is crucial for the brain. But the main one that gets through the blood brain barrier is magnesium threonate, we don't even have that here. There is lots of different things that we need to look at and consider that can be helpful.
Mason: Okay, cool. There are a couple awesome ones that people can take away like zinc B12, methylation, like zinc getting into the kidneys, were kind of getting that link there. Any other supplements and then I'd like to hear your take on the lion's mane as well because I know you use that clinically.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. So I love Lion's Mane. It's become one of my favorites and I'd talk about it to my brain patients all the time. I use it every day, but I'm also super stoked about this new little combo that you guys have got coming in.
So Lion's Mane, what I've noticed, for me personally, I use it twice a day and really my level of clarity, concentration, focus and memory, are much better when I'm taking it, but I'll give you some examples of patients that I've used it with.
So I recently had a young guy, 16 about to start year 12 with glandular fever, and glandular fever one of the big things that happens is brain fog and you can't read books and stuff. He swears by the stuff and he's just walked into 12 going, “Jo it's funny for someone who spent the whole summer so sick I’m performing better in all of my classes and I put it down to the Lion's Mane.”
And then a patient who she's about 50 and she's very Vata, the Ayurvedic dosha, very Vata in her constitution and so very out there and the ether and struggles, a lot anxiety and the Lion's Mane has really given her the ability to ground and concentrate and focus.
And then I've got women in their 50s and 60s who use it in the afternoon instead of a coffee with turmeric and coconut oil and cacao and so it's really antiinflammatory, but they're just like, "It switches my brain on." So I love it. Absolutely love it.
Mason: I really love it as well. It's a really special, special herb. And I know that with the students, it's so funny. A couple of years ago when we were having some growing pains and we couldn't quite keep up with demand of Lion's Mane at the time, we'd run out and we made the mistake of running out before uni exams one year, and they were pissed that these students. And I thought it was like, "Ha ha," and they were like, "No, no, no, I'm not going into this exam without Lion's Mane. You seriously need to get it to me. Otherwise I won't be able to." We're like, "Oh, okay. So you were serious." It's just nice too.
It's one of those beautiful herbs that it's just it indicates and research shows that it's going in there and acting as a prebiotic for the bacteria helping plump up the bacteria. They use it for ulcers, but then it's one of those tonics that people on the other side of it, it's not just therapeutic, it's going in and plumping up and strengthening the wall lining and those bacteria so that these things like ulcers don't come in the first place. Likewise, up in the brain and through the nervous system, it's like it's not just for when there's fog or just when you'd like to do when you have to have, like when you want to focus. It's like when one of these things, just everything else you've been talking about it's lifestyle-based. It's like, "Well, we take this now so we don't have any fog when are like 90." That kind of level of trying to find it.
And I really think hyperbarics one of those as well for the western world. I'm completely on board with you. I mean, it's used therapeutically of course, but it's one of those things that, I'm almost just waiting until I can manifest one that I can get in my own home. I know I spoke to you about wanting to get one of my mum's home when we talked last week and I think it's the same way Lion's Mane saying with diet, same with Omega 3s and fats, this is one of these things that can come and be a part of your living and breathing culture, your family culture, so that we can just have like, well first because we've got to acknowledge, always got to acknowledge this western environment that we're living in.
There is all that mold present, everything that you've been talking about, in the beginning I know I found it quite confronting when I was looking at the amount of heavy metals and so on and so forth, and viruses that are around the world, but it becomes really sweet when you get on the front foot and stop focusing on all those issues and problems and look at what you're kind of weaving and creating for yourself in the future as well.
That's what I really like about your work, Jo and your clinic and the fact that you're down there in the last, maybe you did it Ruby Lane where you did your talk in Manly, the fact that you're doing these community talks and having conversations around prevention, I love that. I love that approach as well as operating clinically because I think one of the things that happens for me, when I've been talking to clinicians and therapists is they don't have that skill to have a conversation with someone and yes, being a patient and a clinician, but at the same time, be able to remind them that they're not always a patient, and to get them out of that mentality at the same time. I think that's a real skill.
I was just chatting to a friend about it yesterday, how much I admire folks that are able to do that, and I really feel you do that and I really feel it's awesome you're out there doing that educational work for the folks in Sydney. I mean, we had a lot of people listening to this from the Northern Beaches there because that's where I kind of started out SuperFeast really got off the ground is up in front as far as markets.
So hopefully a lot of people will be able to come and check you out. Well, we aren't quite finished up just yet, but I do want to just let everyone know that Bounce Matters, so Bounce Matters (www.bouncematters.com.au) is Jo's website and the fact that you got hired back there up in the Northern Sydney beach is amazing. And for people all around the world, go and get onto hyperbaric especially, but you can check out your ... I mean, you've got lots of awesome stuff on that website there. No problem. And I really mean it. I'm always so, of course, why wouldn't I?
Jo Grabyn: Can I just actually share with you guys what Bounce Matters is about? Because people have said to me like, "How is that a name for a health clinic?" I'm like, "Do you actually bounce out of bed or do you hit the snooze button, one, two, three, four times?" Because remember when you were three and it was like you woke up and it was like, "Hey, what am I going to do today?" It was so awesome. And now we're like, "Oh my God, really? We have to get out of it."
So to me, if you're not bouncing out of bed and look, we don't do it. Nobody does it every day, but if you're not bouncing out of bed then majority of the time, your brain and/or your body, you're not firing on all cylinders. And it should be because you can't live the best life that you possibly want if you feel like rubbish. So to me that's what the 'bounce' part is about. It's let's just live life to the full and so you need optimal health to be able to do that.
Mason: I love it and I've just gone and like scrolled down your website there and there's this a picture of a woman that's just face planted a desk with coffee, there's chocolate, there's a couple of cans, and it's just a really, I consider this really hard hitting little course that I imagine she's saying, but I'm sure she's a model, but anyway, I never feel this way but it's been a year now, and I reckon that's something that needs to stay in the conversation, especially, I've noticed at times with myself and whether it's people, kids in their 20s, 30s, 40s, all the time, it's like, all of a sudden ,something shifts and changes and it's just like, "That's right." In a sense it's like, "I will bounce back. I will bounce back."
And then it gets to like, "This isn't me, this isn't normal." And then it's been a year and it's like you're really like just at that point, then you got to jump onto it at that point, you need to start getting it in digging at that point, because there's probably something going on within the body and the brain.
Jo Grabyn: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I just think we need to ... And the reason I do the community events is because it's ... And I'm planning on trying to do a lot more this year. It's sort of just trying to make it fit, because I want people to be able to have stuff they can take home and do, they literally walk out and go, "Oh, well, we can change this, we can change that. We can buy a toothpaste that's fluoride free. We can try to ... We can get that list of the dirty dozen and the clean 15 and we can't afford organic all the time, but we can do these ones organic. We can use less toxins in the cleaning stuff that we use at home or at personal care things. We can eat more seasonally. We can go to the farmer's market on the weekend. We need to make more effort to ..."
Some people you tell them to meditate and seriously they just want to slap you over the head. But if you say to them, "Hey, why don't you go to ... " Especially on the beaches, "Go to the beach, take her shoes off and go and squish your feet in the sand and reconnect with the planet." There's so many simple things that you can do every day. Go to bed half an hour earlier. Just little things that are going to save you and give you years back on your loss, and quite amazing quality back on you life.
Mason: I love it. Jo, thanks so much for coming and sharing and miss on our podcast in this series. It's going out to everyone, everyone's like jumping on board, upgrading their brain and getting on the herbs, but then thankfully, also going to be getting onto all these practices as well and just getting that full spectrum lifestyle vibe.
Jo Grabyn: Thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed it.
Mason: Yeah, me too. Hey, we have to hang out in Sydney. I'm going to really make an effort. Yeah, I think I'm coming down soon, so I'll get in touch more.
Jo Grabyn: Please do.
Mason: Okay. Have a good day.
Mason: Everybody, thank you so much for tuning in today. Now time to take that information round it into your lifestyle so you can amplify your health to the next level. You can really help amplify the help of this podcast by going on to iTunes and subscribing and leaving us a review. Really helps us spread this information around tonic herb, around sovereign help, further out there to the community so we can help more people experience the best out of this life. Thanks guys. I'll speak to you next time.
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